Online talk:People

Use of "Radiant" in ESO ArticlesEdit

On the pages of many generic NPCs, I've seen the race and gender being filled in as "Radiant". Unlike in Oblivion and Skyrim, which have so-called "radiant systems" (originally a term used for Oblivion's AI), this word means next to nothing in regards to ESO. I think we should replace all instances of it with "Variable" or some other, more meaningful word. —Legoless (talk) 20:40, 21 September 2014 (GMT)

It is a fair enough point. I'm fine with it. Jeancey (talk) 22:56, 21 September 2014 (GMT)

Does anyone have a better suggestion than "variable"? It doesn't seem ideal to me. —Legoless (talk) 21:31, 27 September 2014 (GMT)

I think 'Varies' sounds better than 'Variable' personally. Can't really think of anything else that would be simultaneously accurate and concise enough. -- Hargrimm^(T) 21:47, 27 September 2014 (GMT)

To be clear that means people like guards are all set individually with zero random spawning of NPCs, including Imperial troops and the so-called random troops placed in keeps after they are taken. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 19:56, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

That's not what it means at all. Each NPC is set manually to vary between certain values, but the spawning of the NPCs has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. A one third chance for an NPC to spawn as a specific race (say a dominion soldier spawning as Khajiit, Bosmer, or Altmer) is not the same as a radiant system. It is simply a psuedo random generated number that then determines the type of the NPC, whereas the radiant system took in factors such as your level, the level of the quest, the level of the area, the list that the NPC was pulling from. This is not a radiant system, but it still spawns randomly. Jeancey (talk) 21:05, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

Radiant is a lot less than what you are saying it is; it doesn't have to depend on level or any other player involvement in the process at all. Variable means it changes, meaning you will encounter one of each at some point so long as you spend enough time playing, radiant is where even if you spend a decade playing you may not encounter an Altmer guard even where there is only the either/or but random possibility of an Altmer or a Bosmer. Radiant is exactly what you describe, and is not Variable because the possibility remains that you will only ever encounter the same (in this case) NPC type every time you find one (ignoring the almost zero chance of that happening given the number of variables apply-able to bodies).

Tl;dr Variable means it changes, radiant means it changes but with a chance it might not. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 21:52, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

"Radiant" is a buzzword Bethesda uses for various intelligent systems in OB & SR. The point is that it has nothing to do with ESO, at all, and shouldn't be used. Like I said, "variable" (or "varies") might not be ideal, but out of context "radiant" is nonsensical. —Legoless (talk) 22:02, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

Why is it nonsensical to use it for ESO? Is there any reason to think ZeniMax have discarded this usage of the word, which would apply to anything "randomly generated from a set list" in the game. It is a term used across two games now, making it familiar to players, and more understandable than the term Variable, which immediately evokes questions and demands for how it varies, which ends up back where we started but with a different name, the essence of redundancy with no discernible reason for ignoring the first term in the first place.

Radiant is actually perfectly applicable to ESO, loot in ruins is based on the players level, so to say its usage in ESO is nonsensical and nothing to do with the game is nonsense itself. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 22:24, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

(←) The Radiant term comes from the radiant AI system which was first shown in Oblivion. This system isn't in ESO at all, which is why the suggestion was that we should use something else. Jeancey (talk) 22:39, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

It was expanded in Skyrim to just about everything else (quests, conversations, loot). It's important to note that our usage is not the same as the usage by Bethesda. It only properly applies to anything player related per Bethesda's usage, which does mean it exists in ESO as evidenced by the loot that is dependent on the players level. The only thing possibly different in ESO is that a different term is used. Our usage is a lot less defined and has basically been slapped on anything that could be selected from a list, such as NPC races or classes (which are not affected by the player in any way). I believe the term is sufficiently well understood and accepted within the Elder Scrolls community that you would need to know that the term radiant has been discarded for another in order to back the usage of a different term for the same thing. Also remember that we do not have to be perfectly exact to the game where the game is inexact itself. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 22:57, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

We have a page for explaining its usage in Skyrim. It is not a "well understood and accepted" term; on the contrary, it seems overly technical and not at all relevant to this game. I really can't stress enough how inapplicable it is as a general term. To most readers, radiant as a word means "shining" and not much else. —Legoless (talk) 23:03, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

We also have pages on how to create characters, so its existence is proof of nothing. As I've already shown, radiancy is not absent from ESO, there is even an entire system based on the players level that changes entire dungeons, the Veteran system. I have seen plenty of evidence of the term being easily understood on forums and such. I would rather stick to a word we have been given for the system than revert to a less clear one simply because of personal preference. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 23:16, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

It's not personal preference, it's lack of use of a technical term by the developers or even the game itself. "Radiancy" is not only absent from ESO, it's not even a thing. —Legoless (talk) 00:06, 7 October 2014 (GMT)

I have to agree with Legoless. The Veteran system is 100% a different thing from a radiant system. They redid the levels and scaling of all of the zones by hand, not with an automatic system. In Skyrim, if you were level 21, the things around you were level 21. In ESO, the things around you are the level of the zone have have absolutely nothing to do with your level. If you are level 1 in a level 48 zone, the npcs are level 48 and you die. In a radiant system, they would be level 1 as well, or at least closer to it. Absolutely nothing about an NPC changes based on the player's level. Nothing. This is NOT a radiant system at all. You simply don't understand what a radiant system is if you think that this is it. Jeancey (talk) 03:54, 7 October 2014 (GMT)

I agree with these guys: that term has always felt inaccurate to me since, as mentioned, the "Radiant" system, as Jeancey described and Legoless linked to, does not exist in ESO. - Alarra (talk) 04:22, 7 October 2014 (GMT)

In many cases I see no difference between Radiant and Variable, but if Variable ends up being used for ESO, then a number of things currently considered Radiant in Skyrim should also be changed to Variable (eg, NPC races/genders that are randomly generated from a list with no regard to a player's status). However, I think we should stop using Skyrim as the main comparison, since almost everything was Radiant and scaled to player level somehow, and that does not occur in ESO. Instead we should focus comparisons on Oblivion, wherein only an NPC's routine was "radiant", while a number of other things still "varied" (such as the race and gender of a Bandit) or were dependent on player level (ie were "leveled", such as named enemies).

For comparison, I expect Raz's level, Pelidil's level, and Cadwell's level all vary depending on the level of the Zone where you find them (or perhaps player level); meaning that it is hard-coded (and therefore not Radiant) but neither is it randomly generated (and so is not Variable). In Oblivion, each different race/gender of Bandit/Conjurer/Necromancer presumably had its own FormID, and they weren't combined as either Radiant or Variable in summary boxes, because the boxes weren't used. If summary boxes were used, each version would have its own box (Mage Scholars), so maybe that is how we should handle generic NPCs like Vulkhel Wharfrats and Daggerfall Watch.

TL;DR: Do it like Oblivion, and don't use either Radiant or Variable. --Enodoc (talk) 09:38, 7 October 2014 (GMT)

(←) As it turns out, the term "radiant" has been applied too broadly in the Skyrim namespace, and I agree with Enodoc that we should reconsider its usage even there. I think that "radiant" should not be used on ESO pages; not because it is or it is not the same system than in Skyrim, but rather because the discussion already has proven that the term is too unclear to make such a statement based on it. As far as I can see, we find "Gender: Radiant" in the Infoboxes of generic NPCs like Hunters or named NPCs like Krev the Skinner because at a certain point it was decided to do so, not because the randomly determined gender is part of either the Radiant A.I. or the Radiant Story technology. However, I think we should use a term like "variable" or "varies" in the infoboxes, and link it to an article similar to Skyrim:Radiant which explains the mechanics of the variation. I am afraid that pages similar to Mage Scholar for every kind of generic NPC (local guards, soldiers, allies, enemies, villagers etc.) will become huge while containing only little information. --Holomay (talk) 14:35, 7 October 2014 (GMT)

More back to the original point, since the consensus is clearly set on a different word. I think Varies works, not because it changes within the zone, but within the game as a whole. Raz's level is sometimes 15, sometimes 25, sometimes 45. It varies, it changes. I'm not sure varies is the right tone to set, but it definitely applies, when you look at the game as a whole. Jeancey (talk) 16:29, 7 October 2014 (GMT)

Don't belittle me about understanding the radiant system when you are telling lies about its existence in ESO. It is used to a much lesser degree but it is clearly there as I shown and proved. At least Enodoc and Holomay have the decency to acknowledge this, whilst also understanding how our current use is not the same as the games. We do not need a page explaining the term "varies" because there is no system behind it, though each page where it exists will need an explanation or list of the limited variables it could be. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 17:35, 7 October 2014 (GMT)

Where is there a radiant system in ESO? A system where the player's level and choices helps determine the level and stats of enemies? Where? Jeancey (talk) 18:31, 7 October 2014 (GMT)

I've already told you, it's not my fault you refuse to read my posts correctly. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 19:02, 7 October 2014 (GMT)

Leveled loot is not a radiant system. It is a pure leveled item system. If your level is 8, the random sword you get is level 8. If you are level 15, the bow you get is level 15. We've had the same type of system in morrowind, and it is not radiant. I stand by my point that there is no radiant system in ESO and if you think there is, you do not understand what a radiant system is. Jeancey (talk) 19:25, 7 October 2014 (GMT)

The more you open your mouth and try to explain how it isn't present the more proof you give that it is there. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 19:51, 7 October 2014 (GMT)

So you are saying that Morrowind had a radiant system? Jeancey (talk) 19:55, 7 October 2014 (GMT)

(←) Let's try to keep this discussion civil. From what I can find online, ESO doesn't use Bethesda's Radiant AI system. It uses one developed specifically for ESO. If this is the case, then "Radiant" wouldn't be appropriate to use for ESO articles. --Xyzzy ^Talk 20:30, 7 October 2014 (GMT)

Therein lies the problem with the term "Radiant". It was applied so liberally throughout the Skyrim namespace, and to most anything that was remotely variable, that it came to also be interchangeable with "leveled". In terms of current usage, that means both Jeancey and Silencer's points are valid, and a "leveled" system, under liberal use of the word radiant, is indeed "radiant". Under strict use of the word, they are not the same thing, and that is why usage of Radiant in the Skyrim namespace should also be reevaluated.

Raz's level does indeed vary, but so did many NPCs' levels in Oblivion; (PC×1.5)+2 Min:7 also varies, but is clear and concise. Just saying "Varies" is meaningless without clarification, and since each one varies slightly differently, there could not be a centralized page for it, and (as Silencer said) each variable would need to be listed on the relevant NPC's page anyway, thereby defeating the point of the summary. What I think we really need to do is to look into how it varies, and come up with a way of representing that information in the summary box. For Raz, this could be level=POI±5 or something, where POI is the level of the location in which he is found.

Regarding Holomay's point about huge pages with little information for generic NPCs like soldiers and villagers, I think we should look at Bandits/Conjurers/Necromancers in this case, since they are very variable but never use the word "varies", perhaps more than Mage Scholars wherein it refers to 6 'specific' generic NPCs. Gender is really the only parameter where I think "varies" is acceptable, and OB's Bandits/Conjurers/Necromancers never used that anyway. --Enodoc (talk) 22:07, 7 October 2014 (GMT)

this vs Category:Online-PeopleEdit

The category page Online-People is used for this same collection of NPCs.--Swordmage (talk) 20:58, 27 September 2014 (GMT)

Hirelings SplitEdit

A page at Online:Hirelings seems in order. There's no reason to list them with the NPCs. In fact, there's very little reason to even have this page, since it hasn't been used at all and we have Online:Generic NPCs. —Legoless (talk) 14:08, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Yeah that makes sense. Presumably though this page could eventually end up like the Skyrim or Oblivion people pages, listing all the named NPCs... but that would make it quite long. --Enodoc (talk) 14:13, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

What if a hireling appears in the game? There's been no such case yet, but I think I found a quest involving Veesk-Olan somewhere in the game files (maybe for Murkmire?). --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 14:18, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree that separate page would make more sense. If a hireling appears in the game, he has his own page to reflect that. Also, it does not affect him being listed as a hireling.  ~Shuryard (talk) 14:45, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

There was talk of making hireling NPCs at release, but nothing has come of it yet. If the time comes, we should still probably list Veesk-Olan the hireling separately from Veesk-Olan the NPC. As for listing named NPCs here, there doesn't appear to be any need in this namespace. —Legoless (talk) 15:00, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

(←) "hasn't been used at all" What a ridiculous reason for removing a page in a new namespace, especially given its not unused and has seen more attention than the majority of pages in the namespace. There's an empty page in Dragonborn namespace, I suppose we should delete that now? If any of the two pages gets turned into a redirect it will be ON:NPCs. Named characters are people, its part of the trail produced when using the summary tables. Every project we have is geared towards removing or reducing any references to technical terminology like NPC in the article. If the page is deemed too long if all the people are listed (over 10k including generics), then it can be reduced to more of an overview page, with links to all resident pages, once they are created. Then another section could be added to flesh out the article, with links to other specific types of people, eg vendors, hirelings (who are not NPCs in any shape, at least not yet). Deleting this page would be a backwards step in the long-term goals of the site. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 15:37, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

In what way? The distinction between NPCs and People is one we made up for Oblivion, and I can't see a persuasive reason to keep that distinction when we have Online:NPCs, Online:Generic NPCs and Online:Creatures already. ESO is a fundamentally different game, and arguing against that is foolish. Take a look at MW:NPCs and MW:People if you need to see how flexible namespace layout can be. —Legoless (talk) 16:05, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Is your counter-argument really reiterating the second option I outlined? That clearly shows that you hardly paid attention to anything I said, once again. People is for named characters, NPCs is for unnamed characters. Combining the two is foolish when we have a clear way to split the whole 10k into smaller chunks. The technical side of things is that all of them are NPCs, as well as creatures, which we already split off. Generic NPCs in Online has got its own page because of numbers, in previous games there was about 20-30 types, whereas in ESO its at least 20 per faction. The numbers mean things that would have once been a mere section on one page need a whole page to themselves, but this is no reason to not have the overview pages, in fact it is even more pertinent to have them to explain the differences between the pages. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 16:41, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I read your reply fully, and did not reiterate any of your options. Continuing to outline the current distinction is not a persuasive argument. —Legoless (talk) 17:24, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I outlined an option that directly correlates to your examples of the Morrowind pages. All of my reasons for the page staying are far more reasonable than the only one you have given for not having it. Having failed to display any knowledge of why this page might exist I merely wished to inform you of them, giving you an option to argue against them, which you have so far failed to do. You must demonstrate why this page should be removed, I don't need to justify it staying beyond sating your ego. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 17:45, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Nice listEdit

Noice list we've got here. SirEricTheEuphoric1 (talk) 02:25, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, this People/NPC distinction is pretty pointless for ESO (see above discussions). Not sure how we'd even start to go about assembling a complete list. We could maybe start with recurring characters I guess, just so this page isn't comically empty... —Legoless (talk) 02:43, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

There's a few ways to do this, I guess. We can start with directly listing the main characters, supporting characters, and recurring characters (i.e., quest-relevant characters), and then link off to other lists such as Vendors and settlement resident lists. Another angle we could consider taking this along would be to list people based on Reaction; quest-relevant characters and Vendors are all Friendly, while most settlement residents are Justice Neutral. Only a few named enemies are Hostile or Passive Neutral, since most hostile NPCs are generic. --Enodoc (talk) 08:53, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

For a starter, we could copy everyone from the NPCS list into this list SirEricTheEuphoric1 (talk) 15:57, 1 June 2016

Purely on logistics this page will not be able to list every named person in ESO. There are at least 10k at a low figure. I'm just going to remove the incomplete list until we figure out what to do with it, which does not include deletion. As shown in the discussions above and elsewhere, any simple and easy term to divide potentially huge pages apart is desired and necessary in Online namespace. This page will probably be best served as a hub to smaller pages, such as vendors, and possibly named people by Zone, which by rough estimate would each be about 500/600 people, half the size of Skyrim's page. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 21:00, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, this needs to be fixed. Solution, split per zone, and have this as landing page for all the individual pages. If we really want to, we could set up transclusions, but I think that might be excessive. — Unsigned comment by Alpha Kenny Buddy (talk • contribs) at 04:08 on 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Simple enough. Just do like the Skyrim people page, for instance. A zone or town, et al, as a link to the eleventy brazillion npcs. Right now, speaking for myself alone, am somewhat reserved concerning editing and updating the information of ESO people because there's no organized page leading to them, but my wiki skills are insufficient to tackle setting up this page. --SCarverOrne (talk) 04:48, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Fulstrom HomesteadEdit

Fulstrom Homestead is in Eastmarch and not in hew's bane ty — Unsigned comment by Eqves (talk • contribs) at 09:44 on 5 May 2021 (UTC)

It's actually unzoned. —⁠Legoless (talk) 10:03, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

ProffesionsEdit

I dont know where to ask this but at least its npc related.i wonder why we dont have possibility to filter npcs through Professions and if it is possible to make it work like that.like to check all ingame vampires or drunkards.to be able to sort npc like that is very important aspect for a couple of reasons.or maybe i wasnt able to find it? — Unsigned comment by Eqves (talk • contribs) at 10:02 on 5 May 2021