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Lore:Diss
I'm nominating this page for deletion because I don't believe its source adequately validates it. The source itself, the map of western Tamriel and Yokuda from Redguard, features a number of questionable and (in many cases) barely-legible locations. The city of "Diss" is one such barely-legible location in Valenwood which has not been mentioned in any previous or subsequent lore that I could find. In fact, I'm not sure the location marked Diss actually says Diss, it looks more like "Des" to me, and I don't think the dot that appears to mark it is truly a dot marking a city, but rather a random mark made by the map's artist that happens to be adjacent to Diss/Des. Note that other cities with marked locations are all major or well-established cities (Firsthold, Hegathe, Daggerfall, etc.) and use what appear to be tiny drawings of a castle or group of buildings, not a plain dot. It all adds up to a page based on exceptionally thin evidence that we're better off scrapping.
- Delete: As nominator. Croaker (talk) 05:28, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support: When I reworked the Valenwood article, I left Diss in it because I did not want to remove existing content, but I generally agree with the arguments above. Diss seems to be the only location taken entirely from the Redguard map and not mentioned anywhere else which has its own article, so the only info we have on it is the name, and even that is not certain. The Redguard map is good as an auxiliary source (like in case of Verkarth or Hew's Bane), but it's somewhat too little to be the main source for these little locations. -Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 09:05, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose: There are dozens of locations like this that have only one source, especially all the islands that use this map as their only proof of existence. We've also seen how many locations only exist in one game but are not present in another that covers the same area at an earlier or later time. I'm also pretty sure it does say Diss, and while it doesn't have a castle type icon not every other city does. I have no problem with debating its status as a city/town or other location, but the location clearly once existed enough to be mentioned on a map. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 10:15, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Yet we already don't document every single location on that map. The islands at least have readable names for the most part, and the Yokudan islands were later backed up by ESO info. But there are many locations on the map which are unreadable, so how do we make articles for those? We can't create a page without a title. One of the reasons Diss is unworthy of a page is we don't even know if "Diss" is the correct title to use. Should we allow a page founded entirely on a guess? Croaker (talk) 20:17, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Merge and Redirect: The information on this article could be useful someday, or it could just remain forever a one-liner. No telling. In any case, it's not exactly useful as an article, but it isn't useless either. What if we added the city to Lore:Valenwood#Notable_Places as a black name, and put something to the effect of "Diss: A city (or settlement/location if we don't want to say "city" on an unknown location) on the western coast of Valenwood that existed during the late Second Era." with a source to the old Redguard map. Were someone to search for Diss, the page would take them to a location where the information is useful, and the redirect being retained would allow us to save it for future expansion, if we ever see more information on it. -damon talk ♥ contribs 14:19, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- I considered doing that, but the problem I run into is that I can't think of any reason why Diss would be notable. As it is, it's a scribble on a map of dubious quality. I'd much prefer to delete Diss until another source confirms it and elaborates on it. The map alone is not sufficient to justify an article for Diss, we need more. Croaker (talk) 20:17, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Merge and Redirect: I agree with the initial argument that, as it stands now, there's nothing to justify having a separate article on this (city?). It appears on a single map (in one of the lesser-known games in the series, mind you), but never appears in any of the games, so it seems silly to have an article consisting of a single line. I like Damon's suggestion of just giving it a one-line mention within a broader article, so at least it's still documented (though I wouldn't exactly call it a "notable" place; I'll leave the matter of where to put it to someone more versed in lorespace). In any case, there's not enough information about Diss to justify it having its own article. Zul do onikaanLaan tinvaak 14:29, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Merge and Redirect or Weak Delete: Agreed that it should not be its own article - and it's probably misspelled. It might be "Des" or "Das" or "Dus" or something similar, it's basically an unreadable smudge, but for sure I can only make out that there are 3 letters, not 4. Placing it in the 2nd Era is also somewhat questionable, since that area is fully explorable in ESO (seems to be somewhere on the coast of Greenshade), which is set in the 2nd Era, and there's no such location there. It could just be the name of the bay maybe? — TheRealLurlock (talk) 15:43, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: I do want to point out that ESO was during the 2E500s, and Redguard (where the map came from) was in the 800s. When you look at Lore:Second Era there's almost exactly three centuries between the games. Operating on the assumption that Diss/Des was only a small settlement and not a walled city, it's completely feasible that it came into existence in the three centuries since the Alliance War and either broke down in the Third Era (hence never being on maps) or was never a major enough settlement to receive treatment on the biggest maps of the continent, hence the omission. This is, of course, completely speculative on my part and guesswork. We could reword it on the broader article we redirect to as "a location/settlement (whatever wording others prefer) that existed in the late Second Era", which puts it into a past-tense "may or may not exist now" scenario, creates a statement of fact that at the time it was notable on maps, and also clarifies that it was in the last several decades of the era and well after the Alliance War, hence the lack of it in ESO. -damon talk ♥ contribs 16:02, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
Consensus: Merge and Redirect. While consensus is a bit mixed here, given the votes for Merge and Redirect, along with the Oppose vote, I think merging and redirecting is our best option. – Robin Hood (talk) 19:40, 28 September 2016 (UTC)