Oblivion talk:Marksman

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Archive 1: April 2006 – April 2010

Marksman BallisticsEdit

I felt that it would be a good idea to include a paragraph in the entry about how the ballistics work in the game. I have done a bit of research, and I have presented my findings below. I shot one arrow at near vertical, and timed the duration of the flight. The average of three flights was 32.9 seconds, with a +/- of 0.1 seconds. This time was then plugged into the formula -gt^2 + sin(90)vt = 0, with g equal to 1/2 the gravity factor, t equal to the time, and v equal to the initial arrow velocity. The sine function will also be calculated in degrees, rather than radians. Using 16 for g, being that the real world gravity is 32 fps. and t equal to 32.9, the velocity was found to be around 525 fps at full drawl. However this seems much faster than it appears to be, and the gravity in the game seems to be weaker than real world gravity. Thus one half gravity is entered and the arrow velocity is calculated to be around 260 fps at full drawl.Thus the ballistic model for the arrow at any time t can be modeled as:

260cos(angle of shot)t = arrow distance

260sin(angle of shot)t - 8t^2 + initial arrow height above ground = arrow altitude

• note that this model does not account for wind resistance, but it is assumed that the arrow functions in a vacuum. Without the ability to calculate the range of an arrow and the angle it was fired at, creating a model to calculate this is impossible. However few games rarely take the time to model wind resistance.

Using the integral of the functions above, it can be found that the maximum height when fired at 90 degrees is equal to 1056.25 feet and occurs at 8.125 seconds. The maximum range when fired at 45 degrees is 2112.5 feet with 11.49 seconds flying time. It is critical to note that when firing at 90 degrees there is still some horizontal arrow movement. this shows that we are not at a full 90 degrees. However by manipulation of the equations it can be shown that the deviation from 90 is probably less than 1 degree, as around here even a slow speed of 100 fps would move the arrow more than 100 feet; which did not occur. The assumption that the initial arrow height was zero was also used. However any additional height is expected to be blow 5 feet, and when calculated with significant figures in mind this error makes no difference. While for the moment good, all of the work was done on an xbox 360. If any computer user has a more accurate way of calculating arrow velocity, gravity strength, of angle of firing, then the model could be improved. However for the moment I feel that model is accurate enough to be put on the main marksman page. Killerllama45 06:16, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, I found a few things about arrow trajectory. While the marksman skill doesnt affect the horizontal trajectory like it says on the wiki page, it does affect the vertical trajectory aka how much the arrow drops due to "gravity" which may sound odd but you can easily test this out for yourself.

Just go behind the Chorrol Fighters Guild, pick an archery target. enter "player.setav marksman 10" into the console. fire 3 arrows at max draw all aimed at the same spot. Now enter "player.setav marksman 90" into the console and fire 3 arrows at max draw all aimed at the exact same spot as the previous 3. All the while making sure not to move your character or the mouse.

Now go to the archery target. You will notice the arrows fired at a marksman skill of 10 landed lower on the archery target while the arrows fired at a marksman skill of 90 landed higher on the archery target.

The second observation is that all 3 of the arrows fired at the same marksman skill level all hit the exact same spot and all 6 of the arrows fired form a perfect imaginary vertical line.

Thus, it can be concluded that marksman skill does not affect the horizontal trajectory or horizontal accuracy of your arrows but it does affect the vertical flight path/trajectory/accuracy (whatever you wanna call it) of your arrows. Note: Do not confuse vertical trajectory with "firing distance" or "the distance your arrow will travel". I believe that is fixed in the CS under the game setting "fArrowMaxDistance" with a value of 2000.

quite surprised that after all these years, no one thought of this way to test the marksman skill using the console.ChaosLegionnaire (talk) 00:01, 10 March 2015 (GMT)

Marksman ParalyzeEdit

I really didn't know where to post this, but this seemed like a good place. I've got this problem where lately I've been getting paralyzed by Master Marksman Paralyze while fighting things in melee combat. I can find no explanation for this. The only real mods I am running would be the latest versions of Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul and Deadly Reflexes. This seems to be happening a lot while fighting Undead Akaviri Soldiers in the Lifting the Vale quest, but I've noted it happening when fighting other things such as bandits as well. I have no idea what is going on here. Any help would be appreciated. Mole126 05:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

If it's happening during melee combat, you're getting paralyzed by the Blade or Blunt mastery perk, not the Marksman mastery perk. Enemies have access to the same combat perks as the player, dependent upon their skill/level (which in turn is dependent on the player's level). In other words, as the game progresses, the chance of enemies paralyzing you through mastery perks increases (even goblins can do it, not just NPC enemies). --Nephele^Talk 05:17, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

That makes sense, but when I opened up my active effects while paralyzed it was very clear that it was the Marksman paralyze. Anyway, I think this pretty much answers my question. Mole126 05:22, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I've noticed this before as well, and from what i can tell the game designers got a little lazy and just used the marksman perk for all melee skills as well. aka when you get paralyzed by a sword, the script in the game paralyzes the player/npc with the marksman paralyze ability.--71.236.189.17 19:34, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Noticed this myself as well. Also, when I was paralyzed, my Illusion went up the instant the paralyze effect took place. I had a Restoration spell equipped, so it wasn't from my spells. Seems like you get Illusion experience whenever you're paralyzed?62.142.168.64 15:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

MovedEdit

Moved from the main page

"Good enchantments for fighting archers (besides the standard damage enchantments) are hard to come by. A decent pick is usually absorb marksman, as it improves your damage-doing ability while harming theirs. A damage agility enchantment will also ruin their shooting. If you combine both enchantments, the archer might fail to hit you even if you are only five feet away."

Are we sure about this? I thought that one of the discussions above showed that Agility and Marksman don't actually affect accuracy.--TheAlbinoOrc^{any_questions?} 02:00, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

It certainly doesn't affect NPCs when shooting at static targets. Might be worth testing to see if it affects moving ones, but I very much doubt it. rpeh •T•C•E• 07:25, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

TrainingEdit

Are there better ways to Train your Marksman than just Hunting random thing's? Integra 08:24, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

All the tips we have are in the Skill Increases section of the article, and the articles linked to from there. Basically... no. rpeh •T•C•E• 08:26, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Aww....That's lame the best one I could find was the summoning one.... Integra 08:31, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Create a set of constant effect on self enchanted items with Drain Agility and Drain Marksman. A custom spell will work as well, but you'll end up simultaneously training Destruction. This will lower your damage significantly; then you can train on the Everscamps(they have only 10 HP) in Rosentia Gallenus' house in Leyawiin(or in Darkfathom Cave, if you've already completed Whom the Gods Annoy) using an Iron Bow, and Iron Arrows. Also of note here: you can actually put the Staff of Everscamp anywhere you want after you've gone to the altar in Darkfathom Cave during the quest. Just never place the staff in the cave, and you're free to drop it anywhere you please. It does appear to become stuck in the cave, however, if you ever place it with the altar. Throe 19:21, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

If you want to exploit the followers of Peryite before you do his quest, you can just push one of them into a corner and fire repeatedly at them. After your skill gets to 75 you start knocking them down, the best way to do it is to push the follower around the right side of the Peryite shrine to the back (the follower should be standing just behind where the statue's tail crosses back over itself.) With the follower there and you just a few feet away all you have to do is tap the trigger button. If they get knocked down they will fall under the tail of the shrine and the game physics will push them right back to where you had them.

FREE IRON ARROWS!!!Edit

Ok, go to Chorrol And go behind the fighter's guild and eventually an Orc from the Fighter's Guild comes out the Back Door and Target Practices on Target's. Keep a distance so he'll fire an arrow, After he fires Go up to the Target and recieve an Iron Arrow. He fires about 32 a day. Happy Hunting. Integra 23:40, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

What is up with my last Comment? It's all boxed up. It's wierd. Don't forget to read it. :) Integra 23:55, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Putting a space before your sentence tends to do that, I think. Dunno why. I Think you use a : instead to get normal spacing 184.77.194.254 00:46, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

There are many ways to get free iron arrows. An easy one is; go to the Arena Bloodworks and let the Blue Team Gladiator fire his arrows at the shooting target. Every few shoots he will go to get his arrows back. Then, you go to pick the arrows. --Rigas Papadopoulos 14:39, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Absorb [Effect] on Strike, and MarksmanEdit

This needs testing for verification:

I believe enchanting a bow with Absorb [Effect] on Strike does not work as advertised.

As far as I can tell, the following is true of Absorb effects:

1. Both effects(on target and caster) must remain intact for either effect to continue. If one effect is removed or terminated, the other effect is also removed/terminated. For effects with multiple targets, this essentially works the same, but each target has it's own pairing with the caster.
2. The entities upon which the Absorb is acting must remain within a certain range of each other for the effect to continue(can someone with the PC version verify this distance with the construction set?). If the entities are out of range at any point during the duration of the effects, neither target nor caster are affected for the time that the entities are out of range. VERIFICATION NEEDED: If the entities come back within range of each other within the duration of the effect, does the effect resume, or is it completely terminated the moment the entities exceed the range limitation?
3. Absorb effects in spells cannot be "on Target".

The 3rd limitation essentially carries over to enchantments on weapons: one must be within melee range for Absorb [Effect] on Strike to be successful. Melee weapons work, because they are with the same "on Touch" range required for Absorb effects to apply. Marksman weapons(bows) do not work, because the distance between target and caster is too great for the effect to apply. You can achieve the desired effect with a Bow if you are in Melee range, but that defeats the purpose of using a Bow in the first place. --Throe 19:39, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Please note that this discussion is also posted on the Magical Effects talk page and should be continued there to avoid a duplication of responses. – Robin Hood↝talk 04:06, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Moved From The ArchivesEdit

5% chance of knockdown: Really?Edit

Given the frequency with which my enemies were falling down (and me when guards were shooting at me), a 5% chance of knockdown seemed too low, so I did a test. Twice, I summoned an ogre with the console and shot 100 arrows into it, for a total of 200 arrows. Out of that, the ogre fell 32 times, or 16%. My character has 85 marksman, so it definitely wasn't paralyzation. I'm also only using BTmod and a hotkey mod, so it isn't my mods either. Maybe having 100 agility or strength has something to do with it, but whatever it is, the knockdown chance for my character is definitely NOT 5%. 75.156.172.250 23:21, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure where the 5% figure comes from. Timenn only added it recently - hopefully he'll be able to tell us. –rpeh •T•C•E• 00:02, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

It comes from the CS, the value of IPerkMarksmanKnockdownChance. see http://cs.elderscrolls.com/IPerkMarksmanKnockdownChance --Rhomphaia^T•C 00:11, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Yup, I got the value straight for the CS. I haven't done the testing like is mentioned here. I know I noted earlier when playing the game that I got quite a few Knockdown successes, but didn't find them particularly more frequent than other knockdown effects (counting the fact that arrows have that chance at every shot, while the melee skills require you to do a special attack, with longer duration).

I think it's helpful to find out whether there is a relation between Agility and Knockdown chances. --Timenn-<talk> 20:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Well there are settings fKnockdownAgilBase and fKnockdownAgilMult, I did a bit of testing and by setting my targets agility to 0 I was knocking them down 50% of the time, this deacreased noticably as I increased the targets agility although my testing was not extensive enough to make any meaningful estimate of percentage. Player Agility ddid not seem to have any effect.

The Damage done by the shot may also make a difference. I initially started testing with a Bow and Arrow set that did 0 damage, so as not to have to bother reviving my targets every few shots, and I never got a single knockdown. There are settings for fKnockdownDamageBase and fKnockdownDamageMult. Although I did not notice much difference between Iron and Daedric Gear only with the 0damage gear.

Certainly some more in depth testing is warranted--Rhomphaia^T•C 15:48, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Excellent bit of testing! You're right though - it's going to need more to find out all the effects that can change the chance. I imagine the same applies to paralysis too... rpeh •T•C•E• 15:55, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, nice testing. If the values on this article appear to be incorrect, we probably need to test them for the other weapon perks as well. But it's a good idea to find the formula behind it for Marksman, as its perk abilities are a bit easier to get working. I'm willing to do some testing with this myself too. --Timenn-<talk> 16:15, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I have to note, according to tool tips in game, it is possible to achieve a knockdown effect from damage alone. This would be hard to pull off with a low Marksman and Agility early in the game, but certainly if you're anywhere near the threshold to benefit from that perk, you'll be knocking opponents down with Marksman before you actually see the perk. I would bet the perk simply ADDS an additional 5% chance on top of your existing chance. 24.237.190.24 22:04, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the game code, there's nothing that acts on iPerkMarksmanKnockdownChance - it's a straight-forward 5% chance. As various posters have mentioned, however, there are several other things in the combat routine that could cause a knockdown, so I believe they would have to be what's making up the rest of the 16% the OP mentioned. – Robin Hood↝talk 06:42, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll go ahead and add something like "*While the expert marksman perk only has a base 5% chance of knockdown there are other factors that affect knockdown chances. Specifically if your target has a high agility you will be less likely to knock them down (this does not however alter the base 5% chance added by the perk) and if your weapon has a high damage you are more likely to achieve a knockdown. Therefore in effect the chance of knocking your target down is can vary although it will never go below five percent." once we're sure that this is all the factors.--Ghurhak gro-Demril _{or TAO}^Yes? 16:47, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

That sounds pretty good to me. There's one thing in the code that skips the 5% chance, but I wasn't able to figure out what it was. It might be some sort of immunity or who knows what. For now, though, I'd go with what you have...we can always change it if we get more information later. Given the general agreement on what's happening, though, I'm removing the GQ tag. – Robin Hood↝talk 01:59, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

underwaterEdit

"The bow is useless underwater and against underwater enemies. Although you can fire a shot, the arrow drops almost immediately; even if you are close enough to make contact with your enemy, no damage is inflicted."

Has it been tested? Because in my game damage is definitely inflicted. I used to shot slaughterfish and argonians from Veyond cave underwater while being under 100% Chameleon. Arrow does indeed drop almost immediately, but it hurts an enemy if it reaches him. I have only a very few mods installed and I highly doubt they affect it anyhow. — Unsigned comment by 109.205.251.164 (talk) at 10:58 on 12 February 2012

You're right that it doesn't do no damage, but it does do a lot less damage than normal. Even at point-blank range, I was doing only about 1.5 points of damage when I should've been doing 18. I'll change the wording accordingly. – Robin Hood↝talk 03:36, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Skillup Information on Marksman page may not be correctEdit

I use the PS3 if that matters. Different versions of the game have different quirks such as one that I read "PS3 bow users will not degrade their bow by firing an arrow" (loose quote). I regularly walk around dangerous areas in sneak mode and with an arrow nocked. Sometimes I have to cancel 'Attack Mode' as there are no targets or I want to interact with an object or an NPC. I'll fire the arrow into the ground and retrieve the arrow. I fired an arrow into the ground 'earth' on the main outdoors map and received a skill up in Marksman. This surprised me as I read you can only receive skill ups on 'living' targets. The planet is alive!

Anyway, someone please verify this and edit the main page if found to be in error. I tried but didn't do a good job of it. RIM reminded me to only write in discussion/talk if I'm to use first person tense. Thanks RIM.

mini edit to my post: I just bought the game at the tail end of February 2012, with two or three add ons. I only mention this as there may be a patch applied to the DVD that caused this discrepancy. If anyone is savvy on all of the patch information, maybe the answer is in there.

--Dufflite 21:02, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

You may have been firing arrows on targets before that last one. If you push the attack button (so if you keep nocking arrows) on time, you won't get the experience, until you stop. So for example, if you need to hit one more time to get a level up, but you keep firing until you've stopped at... let's say 20 hits, you'll get all that experience after you've fired the last arrow ~ Dwarfmp 21:37, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Marksman Notes Edit: Arrows and GhostsEdit

In my edit I changed the sentence, "If you use a silver or daedric bow, then any kind of arrow will damage and be absorbed by ghosts," to a slightly different, "If you use a silver or daedric bow, then any kind of arrow will damage and pass through ghosts." I did this because in all my gameplay, the ghosts I've killed have never absorbed my arrows. They fly through them, still doing them damage, but you can retrieve the arrow afterwards. It may have hit a wall and bounced farther away but it is still there. If anyone disagrees with me, feel free to tell me. -- Sees-the-Stars (talk) 04:31, 11 July 2014 (GMT)

Makes sense. In the future though, you could probably just explain a change like this in the edit summary. Talk page discussions are usually only necessary when the change you're making is controversial or requires a lot of explanation, so using the edit summary box is usually sufficient for simple wording changes. Zul se onikaan^{Laan tinvaak} 12:37, 11 July 2014 (GMT)

Just to clarify this point further about retrieving arrows fired into ethereal/incorporeal undead like ghosts and wraiths. Apparently, the take all looting function has a bug of making the arrows that were fired into ghosts/wraiths disappear. (Note: I wasnt using any enchanted bows or arrows. Just regular unenchanted non-magic bows and arrows) Therefore, after killing a ghost or wraith, you will need to first find all the arrows that you fired into them and pick them up before looting their remains with "take all" or just pick up only their ectoplasm from the loot window if u cant find all your arrows and dont use "take all". Otherwise, you will lose your fired arrow(s) that hit the ghost or wraith. This is a very strange quirk with the game indeed!ChaosLegionnaire (talk) 06:51, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Master perk glitchEdit

When a ghost or wraith is paralyzed, arrows will not cause damage until the effect wears off. Has anyone else noticed this? Chicken Slayer (talk) 00:45, 24 April 2015 (GMT)