Lore talk:Ald'ruhn

Ashlander holy siteEdit

The recent gameplay footage for ESO:Morrowind has some info on Ald'ruhn in the Second Era. Apparently it was an Ashlander holy site where the Ashlanders fought and defeat the massive crab Skar. Of course we will know more once the game releases and we have more detail Hunts-for-Wisdom (talk) 13:13, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

That is true, but our policy is not to include pre-release information in lore namespace. This information will definitely be added once Morrowind goes live. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 18:55, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Ald'ruhn/Old RunEdit

Shouldn't there be a connection between these places? They have very similar names. I know they aren't in the same exact location but a lot of Arena locations share this similarity, like Sunguard (Arena, Skyrim), Cormount (Arena, Online), or even, Mournhold (Arena, Online). Not to mention in the Morrowind concept map, Old Run was renamed to Aldrun like other places and its a House Redoran location like Ald'ruhn. Also, Ald'ruhn translates to Old Home. Even though it isn't exactly the same name, it's still pretty close. --Vincentius1 (talk) 00:52, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

I think it definitely deserves some kind of remark - like a note similar to the one already present in Arena:Old Run, but still I wouldn't treat them as definitely confirmed to be the same location. -Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 09:46, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

The name of Ald'ruhn is most definitely derived from "Old Run" from a development standpoint. Just because it's on the opposite side of the island in Arena doesn't disqualify at as being the same location, plenty of Arena places have re-appeared in subsequent games in different locations than they used to be (take a look at Markarth Side for example). Old Run is the same place as Ald'ruhn, the changed location isn't a retcon, it's just an updated interpretation. This info might be better off in the notes section, but the note shouldn't describe them as different places when they're quite likely the same one. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 19:48, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Old Run's location in the southeast of Vvardenfell cannot be reconciled. The names are similar and you can draw whatever assumptions you like about developer inspiration, but it is speculation to claim that they are the same place. —Legoless (talk) 21:58, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

hur dur Edit warringEdit

Jeancey should learn what edit warring entails, because a singular reversion is not it. Unless if Jeancey meant to say that by his reversion of my reversion it became edit warring - in which case it is an odd decision of Jeancey to place the page on lockdown due to him edit warring.

Fact remains, Arano states abundantly clear that the Legions were recalled to defend Cyrodiil - there is no question about it in his line of dialogue. To defend the homeland of the Empire, translates to them being recalled to Cyrodiil as Cyrodiil is the seat of the Empire.

94.210.31.12 20:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I really should have said "potential edit warring", since it was clearly heading that way, and it wasn't going to get hashed out in the edit summaries. Really, any time an edit is undone twice, that should be an immediate flag to take it to the talk page. In such instances, the existing state of the page before the first contentious edit is maintained while the discussion is underway (which is why I reverted your edit). Incidentally, I actually agree with your initial removal of content, that the claimed ambiguity of whether the legions were recalled to Cyrodiil is mostly irrelevant to this specific page. It doesn't matter if the legions were fully recalled from all of Morrowind or not, they weren't present in Ald'ruhn and the Redoran were forced to defend the city themselves, a battle which they lost. I don't think the initial sentences really helps clarify anything about that fact (a fact which is entirely undisputed). It really just serves to cause arguments like this one. Jeancey (talk) 20:53, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The whole "with no documented assistance from the Legions" line adds nothing of value to the page. Removing the line keeps the event recorded as it was in the source material. Keeping it would be akin to adding a line to the Great War article stating "The Aldmeri invaded Cyrodiil with no documented assistance from the armies of Anequina or Pelletine", it adds nothing of value to the article, and only makes it needlessly longer while trying to indirectly force a perspective on the reader.

For the purpose of keeping in line with the source material, all the article should say is that the Redoran fought the Daedra at Ald'ruhn, raised Skar out of desperation, and lost. There is no reason to even speak about the Legion in this bit.

94.210.31.12 21:23, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Lines like "claims made by sources over 100 years after the crisis" also adds nothing of value to the page, and try to indirectly force a perspective on the reader. I personally think it's important to leave all articles that reference the withdrawal of Imperial troops from Morrowind (or lack thereof) ambiguous with regards to who is right. There has been a longstanding trend among wiki editors to discount all the lore from Dragonborn in 2013 because it doesn't align with what Oblivion presented in 2006, and write articles that essentially accuse Adril and the History of Raven Rock books of flat out lying.

It's abundantly clear that they're not making things up, as the lack of the Imperial military in Morrowind during and after the Oblivion Crisis was tangibly -felt- in its effects. The uncoordinated defenselessness during the Crisis, the loss of cities like Ald'ruhn, the subsequent lack of any assistance or defense during the Argonian Invasion, and the collapse of Imperial-backed groups like House Hlaalu make it painfully obvious that one way or the other, the Empire and its Legions left. It's entirely possible that Ocato was mistaken, or that the Legions were moved to other provinces deemed more important (and it's only -believed- that they were moved back to Cyrodiil), or that the Legions were simply recalled late in the Crisis, and didn't arrive back home in Cyrodiil in time to make a difference. There are many ways to reconcile the conflicting assertions, without simply dismissing all lore from Dragonborn as lies in the article. I'd also say that people looking back on history are likely better informed on what happened than those who were mired in it while it was current, and that generally newer lore has authority over older lore where it directly contradicts.

In any case, on this particular page it's true that the Legion doesn't need to be mentioned at all. I'd be in favor of removing the paragraph from 'Details on Morrowind during the Oblivion Crisis' to 'left the locals defenseless' And my tl;dr stance is that neither Arano nor Ocato should be treated as more objectively correct or incorrect. Where there's conflicting sources, the proper procedure is to present both sides, leave it ambiguous, and let the reader decide what they want to believe. Feran Derethi (talk) 21:53, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I would agree we shouldn't be putting one of Arano or Ocato above the other, and I think the best option is to just remove those sentences entirely, and just state that Redoran had to do it alone and did not succeed. A link to the oblivion crisis page in there will allow readers to read the article on the entire event, if they wish to know more than what specifically happened to Ald'ruhn. Jeancey (talk) 22:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The closer you are to the events themselves, the more reliable a source you have. Adril Arano explicitly states them being recalled to their homeland - which runs counter to the events of TES IV, as the quest regarding the Great Gate is near the end of the Crisis (all that's left is going to Paradise to retrieve the AoK, and then go to the capital to name Martin Emperor - those are the closing days of the Oblivion Crisis). Not only does Arano's statement get countered by statements made in TES IV, of which an argument could be made of lies, but it also gets countered by the very quest displaying none of Cyrodiil's counties getting any Legion support to defend them - including the very heir to the throne. Arano in this case is a prime example of the unreliable narrator - the main quest of TES IV is not.

The "lack of the Imperial military" is easiest explained away by them having been killed during the Oblivion Crisis and subsequent eruption of Red Mountain, and the Redoran used the opportunity to get back at their ancient rivals in House Hlaalu.

For the sake of neutrality, merely saying that the Redoran raised Skar to try and fight the Daedric invaders and failed would be sufficient. Anything other than that is ultimately not relevant.

94.210.31.12 19:23, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I edited it to directly state the sources of information. Considering this is a page about Ald'ruhn and not the Oblivion Crisis, I would also support the entire bit of the withdrawal being removed and it just sticking to directly relevant information pertaining to the invasion and Skar. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 20:05, 2 November 2024 (UTC)