Lore talk:Wars/Archive 1

This is an archive of past Lore talk:Wars discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Deletion of the "Daedric Invasion"

"The Daedric Invasion" isn't a war, and hasn't to this point been treated as such by Bethesoft, which makes it non-canonical, and as such should be deleted. - The Old Ye Bard

I agree that it certainly doesn't seem to be cited as a proper war, though it may be perceived as such in the future. That said, it was a conflict - between the Empire and the Daedra army of Mehrunes Dagon. As the title of the page is "Wars and Conflicts" I think it's suitable under the premise of being a major conflict. Although it may not be in the traditional sense of the term, in that it wasn't a battle between nations, the Daedric Invasion was a struggle between two opposing forces over the hegemonious rule of Tamriel (and the reestablishment of Daedra rule and presence in the world). --Emperor Moo 06:57, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

I think that the Daedric invasion fits the definition of a war perfectly. Two seperate, sovereign forces fought a series of small to large scale battles with one another over cities and other valuable sites. -MasterofSiege

Changed the title

I have changed the title of "Daedric Invasion of Tamriel" to "Oblivion Crisis." My reasons for this are, after finishing the Oblivion main quest and talking to the various citizens of Cyrodiil, they will sometimes refer to it as "the Oblivion Crisis" -- both words specifically capitalized, making it the proper name of the events, at least in common usage in Cyrodiil at the time of the game's end. As there are no other official sources, or an official name given by the Elder Council or Bethesda, I think it's safe to assume that "Oblivion Crisis" is the best name to use for the events of TES:IV. 74.132.208.242 23:50, 12 August 2007 (EDT)

Bosmer/Khajiit war

Don't know the name of this war (or these wars?), but it's referenced in A Dance in Fire. Anybody know of a more reliable source of info about this particular conflict? --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 00:14, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

Also the War of the Blue Divide, between the Altmer and Bosmer is mentionned briefly. Any other source for that? --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 00:19, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

Establish a structure?

While I'm here...would anyone object to me putting the wars and conflicts in chronological order? Right now they're a tad muddled; the Daedric Invasion is, as of now, the latest major incident yet it sits in the middle. It would make for easier reading methinks. --Emperor Moo 07:00, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

I've gone ahead and restrucured the events in chronological order. Could still use expanding though, I'll see if I can't find some more facts about the vague regional conflicts. --Emperor Moo 05:59, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

Move?

I think that this article should be moved to Tamriel.Aldage 17:25, 4 October 2007 (EDT)

What exactly do you mean? The article is already in the Tamriel namespace, and it seems to be appropriately located. --Eshe^talk18:15, 4 October 2007 (EDT)

Oh, well don't I feel smart. Sorry for this question.Aldage 19:54, 4 October 2007 (EDT)

Camoran Usurper

Would this be a proper place to mention the Camoran Usurper? --Quill 17:02, 13 February 2008 (EST)

There's already a section on him here, but it would be worth mentioning the war, I suppose. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 05:41, 14 February 2008 (EST)

Oh, that's what I meant. I should have expressed myself more clearly. --Quill 06:01, 14 February 2008 (EST)

OK, I've done some changes and added info about the Camoran Usurper business. I'm really not sure what to call that conflict. Now, the headline just says "The Camoran Usurper's Invasion", which sounds rather awful to me, but it's described in that way in the article on the Usurper (for link, see Rpeh's comment above). I hope someone will come up with a better headline. --Quill 18:08, 14 February 2008 (EST)

War of the First Council

It was really not a religious war, but a war over the works of Kagrenac tools and the heart of Lorkhan. The Dewer fought against House Daggoth, who at the time were allied with all the other great houses. -Intranetusa

In 'The War of the First Council' by Agrippa Fundilius, he states that Houses Dwemer and Dagoth were allied against the other great houses. This article says that Dwemer and Dagoth opposed each other.

It was certainly a religious war, as Azura incited the Dunmer to battle, Shor the Nords, and the Dwemer sought divine ascendance through the Heart. There are many competing stories over whose side everyone was on. I know longer remember all the variations.Temple-Zero 13:21, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

The great majority of sources contradict some aspects Agrippa Fundilius' summation of events, notably regarding House Dagoth. The prevailing consensus seems to be that House Dagoth fought with the other Chimer bodies under Nerevar against the Dwemer, then was disbanded and its members killed or absorbed by other Houses soon after the Battle of Red Mountain due to Voryn Dagoth's conduct, likely on order of the Tribunal. No other source suggests that House Dagoth was "Secular", or mentions Orcs being involved in the conflict. The Five Songs of King Wulfharth suggests (I think) that Voryn Dagoth was carrying on a dialogue with the Nords at the time and at some point informed them that the Dwemer had the Heart of Lorkhan, but even if that were true, it was not necessarily a treasonous or treacherous act.

The main point I wanted to make here is that I think the starting date for this war, 1E 288, should be removed unless a source can be provided. There's little if any indication that the war spanned more than a year, let alone 12 years. I can't find any source in the Lore that supports the assertion. I suspect it was erroneously adopted from fan fiction in the Imperial Library. Minor Edits 21:21, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Wrong Four Score War

The War with Morrowind (1E 2840-920) is actually the Four Score War of Morrowind vs. the Ramen dynasty; the so-labeled Four Score War (2E 816-96) is actually from 862 to 896 (last year of 2E) and is Tiber Septim's conquest of all Tamriel, not just Morrowind. Previously, Morrowind surrendered in 1E 2920 to Reman but he was assassinated and the empire crumbled; later, Tiber tries to rebuild Tamriel and makes a deal with Vivec to conquer the Aldmeri. Sources -> Pocket Guide to the Empire (1st Edition): Hammerfell, The Origin of Cyrus, Intro to Redguard, On Morrowind--the Imperial Province, and 2920--The Last Year of the First Era. — Unsigned comment by 76.28.132.73 (talk) on 28 October 2008

Tense?

Some parts of this article are in present tense, others in past tense. I'd assume as a history they should be in past tense, but either way it seems to me like there should be a more consistent structure to it.89.240.254.195 22:33, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

I agree. Referring to history in the present tense is something from time to time but it's more understandable if we refer to historical events in the past. I've added a cleanup tag indicating that this needs doing. Thanks! –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 13:20, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

Tiber Wars

why aren't they mentioned?

I have to rekindle this old discussion. The conquests of Tiber Septim are one of the most famous in Tamriel's history. If nobody minds I will create a section about it. Until then I will link some stuff related to the article. -- kertaw48 22:16, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

It's now almost four weeks later...I'm guessing nobody minds. :) Just posting to remind you of this, assuming you're watching the page. – Robin Hood↝talk 17:24, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Eh, I know, they've also been started without me. But since Talos waged wars over all of Tamriel this one is going to be a tad more difficult than the previous wars I made articles on. Still, thanks for the reminder. -- kertaw48 18:28, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

The Five Year War

Is The Five Year War ever mentioned in great detail in any of the in-game books? It intrest's me and I was just wondering.Lord Jeerus 06:06, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Lord Jeerus

Yep, it's mentioned in Mixed Unit Tactics --S'drassa ^•T2M 06:08, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Arnesian War

In the article it is mentioned that the war and Barenziah's abdication are somehow linked. I see no link to them whatsoever. Her abdication happened only few weeks prior to the storyline of Arena, which started in the year 3E 399, while the war was fought in 3E 396. Also, there is no mention of the war (only rebellion) in both books about her (The Real Barenziah and Biography of Queen Barenziah).

Also in the article there is no mention of St. Roris whose death caused the whole war. --Kertaw48 13:16, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Any cleaning up you can do would be great. I'm only just beginning to realise how bad a lot of our Lore articles are. A lot of it seems to have been copied from TIL, which seems to have a mixture of lore and fanfiction. There's a huge job needed to link everything to reliable sources. rpeh •T•C•E• 14:14, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Sure, I'll do it (at least for this one). And about that linking to reliable sources, how exactly is that supposed to work? I mean do we just leave a note about it and a link to the source or is there some special way to do it? --Kertaw48 16:17, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Ideally, use the <ref> tag. You can see a few examples already on the page and others dotted around Lore space such as this. That can take some getting used to, though, so just adding a note such as "More information can be found in the XXX" will be great. I can always put it into the ref format later. rpeh •T•C•E• 14:43, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Usurper Capturing Dwynnen

Is there a source for the statement that the Camoran Usurper conquered Dwynnen in 253? All I can find about this is that Othrok reclaimed Dwynnen from an unnamed lich in 253, but I can't find any connexion to the Camoran Usurper. The Fall of the Usurper Quill 13:59, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

The Fall of the Usurper mentions an unnamed Lich as being the legend, not fact. The lich has an army of "zombies, ghosts, vampires, and skeletons" and further down, the Camoran Usurper is said to have an army of "undead and daedra". The Daggerfall Chronicles has the following line in the entry for 3E 249: "Certainly his [Haymon's] army was largely supernatural, but so was that of his archfoe, the Baron of Dwynnen." Having re-read what I can find, I'm not sure whether this means the Baron captured Dwynnen from a lich, that he was the lich, or that the Usurper was the lich. rpeh •T•C•E• 14:36, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

The Fall of the Usurper states the following: "The legend [...] is that years and years ago (archivists have agreed to the year 3E 253), the people of Dwynnen were ruled by a lich and its armies of zombies, ghosts, vampires, and skeletons. Othrok was blessed with by gods and given an army of men and animals to destroy the dead. He brought peace and prosperity to the land, growing more powerful as the land improved. Years later, he led the tiny barony against the Camoran Usurper, and saved all of Tamriel."

So, from this account it seems that in the year 253, Othrok defeated the lich which ruled Dwynnen. There is no mention in this legend of a connexion between the Camoran Usurper and this lich, and by this account, the Camoran Usurper never conquered Dwynnen. In stead, Dwynnen was the battlefield where he, years later, in 267, was defeated by Othrok and his allies. Cfr also The Refugees, where Dwynnen is described as a safe haven for refugees from Valenwood and Hammerfell, but presently under attack from the Camoran Usurper. (The Refugees must take place in 267, the year of the Usurper's defeat.) I don't know about the entry for 3E 249 in the Chronicles of Daggerfall. I don't have access to the Chronicles, and have never read them. However, in 3E 249 the Usurper would have just started his conquest of Valenwood (cfr Brief History of the Empire, vol III), and would be far from the borders of Dwynnen. Perhaps the reference to the Baron of Dwynnen and his army is a reference not to the Baron of Dwynnen who reigned in 3E 249 (the supposed lich), but to the Baron of Dwynnen that eventually defeated him in 3E 267, i.e. Othrok? A clash between the Usurper and Dwynnen seems unlikely as early as 3E 249 regardless of the other facts. Quill 15:03, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

You're probably right. Change/delete as you see fit. Incidentally, there's a copy of the DFC here at the moment if you want to complete your collection. rpeh •T•C•E• 17:18, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Ayleid Wars

Should there be an included section about the Slave Queen Alessia's wars with the Ayleids? After all, they were one of the most important conflicts in early Tamrielic history, defining that the Cyrodiils would be the ones to rule the heartland henceforth. It could have the working title of Cyrodiilic Slave Rebellion or Ayleid Wars or something. Either way, it seems counter-intuitive not to mention it. Wildcard977 20:15, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

What details would you include? There's very little concrete information about the rebellion. If you can find something useful to include, then go ahead and add it. rpeh •T•C•E• 17:16, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Battle of Cryngaine Field Question

The Daggerfall Chronicles said Lysandus was pierced through the heart by an arrow. The two current sources claim he was pierced through the throat. From my understanding, we trust in-game sources over others. However, I'm bringing it up here to see if anyone has a good suggestion as to what we should do with this inconsistency. Legoless 23:37, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

After reading all three sources, I'd have to say that either one is possible. Seeing as the lore in Daggerfall was (most likely) written by a different person than that of Oblivion, it is plausible to say that both can be correct (though some may say otherwise) in different contexts (e.g., if in terms of Newgate's and Fav'te's books as references, then it would be the throat; if in terms of "The Daggerfall Chronicles", then it would be the heart). In any event, I'd also like to hear other's opinions on this. Kalis Agea 23:55, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

This reminds me of the Battle of Hastings: was Harold really shot in the eye? In this case, it's fairly easy to include both sources. Something like "was shot by an arrow, either in the heart(ref) or the throat(ref)". rpeh •T•C•E• 08:15, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Sack/Siege of Kvatch

What's this messing with the name of the battle? Personally I think the original 'sack' suits it better, and I assume the anon got siege in their head from the Oblivion quest Breaking the Siege of Kvatch. I was about to undo the edit when I noticed it's already been done twice. To prevent an edit war, please post your opinions here instead of swapping it back and forth. Legoless 19:26, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree, the Siege implies a long drawn out battle of attrition against the defenders instead of the surprise attack and subsequent invasion of Kvatch done by the Mythic Dawn.--Pwnageincarnate 19:36, 16 April 2011 (UTC)Pwnageincarnate

Sack is definitely better. Yes "siege" is used in the quest name, but Eldamil says "I was at the sack of Kvatch. They had no chance. We took them by surprise, and we carried the walls in the first assault.", making it clear that the city was taken by assault. rpeh •T•C•E• 19:38, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Suggested revisions

In the game, people refer to the Skyrim civil war as "The Stormcloak Rebellion", so I think the title for it on this page should be changed. Also, the intro in that section should probably briefly explain the Markarth Incident, as it was perhaps the most important event precipitating the death of Torygg (and thus the whole conflict). Minor Edits 22:32, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I'd agree with that change. If there's no disagreement, I'll try to remember to do it unless someone else does it first. rpeh •T•C•E• 07:03, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Anyone else care to say their piece on this? Otherwise I'm going to change "The Skyrim Civil War" to "The Stormcloak Rebellion" because, as I mentioned, I'm not aware of the game referring to the conflict as a "civil war". Even it is used by some NPC or game text, "Stormcloak Rebelllion" seems to be the more prevalent term. I'll do my best to make sure existing links are tweaked accordingly. Minor Edits 05:20, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

"Second Arnesian War"

Where does this term come from? Brand-Shei mentions an Accession War, which may be how the Argonian invasion is referred to. "Second Arnesian War" doesn't sound quite right. --Legoless 00:33, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't have all my data files with me right now so there might be something in dialogue that I can't check, but this might be an invented term. Marked as a Good Question for now. rpeh •T•C•E• 07:03, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I believe that the term originates from this forum post, due to that the author of the post wrote "Term I use to describe the Argonian Invasion". I am not completely sure, though. --Aurora u 14:51, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'm almost positive I've heard the term in dialogue. Minor Edits 06:38, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Probably from one of the novels, I believe it was mentioned when the book was discussing what happened 40 years after the oblivion crisis — Unsigned comment by DelosFandas (talk • contribs) at 06:59 on January 10, 2012</ref>

Are you sure, ME? User Velothi on the forums claims to have coined the term. If that's the case, it needs to be removed from the article. —Legoless 15:48, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

No, I'm not sure at all anymore. There's a good chance I only saw it used on the forums. A quick google search only turns up uesp forum topics and this from TIL. Is it possible to search the Skyrim game data for the use of the term?

The real question is, what we would call it instead? I mean, it appears as if we have no other term for it; "The Argonian Invasion of Morrowind" doesn't really roll off the tongue. If we're being forced to essentially invent a title for the conflict, the Second Arnesian War seems like the most appropriate moniker given its origins and the motivations behind the Argonians' invasion. I highly doubt it was called the Accession War; accession relates to the appointment of a new leader. I imagine the Accession War is another term for the War of Succession of the War of the Red Diamond, or some other war related to the appointment of a new king/emperor. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 21:24, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Brand-Shei's dialogue on the Accession War, in response to "Why were you searching in Skyrim?": "I learned that a matron who had served for House Telvanni had escaped Morrowind during the Accession War. Records showed her buying passage aboard a sailing vessel named "The Pride of Tel Vos," but that's where the trail ran cold. I spent years looking for what became of the ship, but I ended up empty-handed." Doesn't reveal much. The thing on TIL looks like fanfic rubbish. —Legoless 22:08, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

No argument there; the TIL thing is clearly an amateur work, and judging by the date, it's possible the author got "second arnesian war" from us. Okay, I give; let's change the name to the Accession War. I hadn't realized that "accession" can also be defined as "an increase by something added: an accession of territory". It's possible we may have to correct things later when more information comes to light. I think there's still a good chance that the Accession War and the Argonian invasion were two separate conflicts, but since we have no information for one and no name for the other, this is a better solution than fabricating a name. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 22:26, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. —Legoless 22:50, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia style "war template"?

I know this is really not important, but I'm just curious. Is it anyway possible to have these wars with a small chart like the ones featured on wikipedia? In other words, when you look up a war, i.e. Battle of Waterloo, and look to your right, there's like a small graphical chart that details the participants, location, date, strength of armies, number of casualties, results and etc. I'm sure it's going to be alot of work, but is it possible? It's been getting popular in alot of other wikis and I was wondering if it may in some point in the future may happen here too. — Unsigned comment by 69.111.77.79 (talk) on 29 December 2011

It's possible but wouldn't be very useful. I don't think there's information on strengths or casualties for any battle in TES, and even information such as location and result is lacking in most cases. The trouble is that we generally only know the names of the wars, not the battles, thus all we can really do is give a general overview. I'd be interested to know where "other wikis" are getting their information. rpeh •T•C•E• 06:54, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I've been checking out several "other wikis" that have these charts, and I think it's somewhat doable... it is going to take alot of work yet impractical, but I've seen some examples (i.e.: http://resistance.wikia.com/wiki/Siege_of_Genoa). Maybe the wars that have several major battles can use this template? --DelosFandas 03:00, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Forsworn Rebellion or "the battle of the Reach"

For those who play Skyrim, you will be familiar with this story when you speak with either Jarl Igmund of Markarth or Thongvor Silver-Blood, who are both in Understone keep. Should this be added?

So it takes back pretty much during the Great War with the Imperials and the Aldmeri Dominion. According to Jarl Igmund, when his father ruled, the Forsworn were pretty much revolting and successfully took over Markarth and the reach and created a "Independent Kingdom" from Skyrim and the empire, killing Igmund's father as well. However, Igmund created a "Nordic militia" with promises of freedom of religion and got Ulfric Stormcloak to even fight as well and eventually took back the Reach and stopped the rebellion completely. But because of the White-Gold concordant, Igmund couldn't keep his promise and people pretty much hate him for it. — Unsigned comment by 69.111.77.79 (talk) on 29 December 2011

Yup, this probably needs a mention. Not sure if it should have its own section or be merged into the Great War though. rpeh •T•C•E• 07:06, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

No deletes, Please?

In the oblivion crisis section, could no one delete my addition, sack of the crystal tower, from it, it is a rather major battle event, the destruction of the second most powerful place of magical learning, and home to some of the most powerful altmer wizards. please don't delete it, if you're nice enough, besides, it's not bad it's there. Emzi43 here have not logged in yet. — Unsigned comment by 90.207.166.140 (talk) on 31 December 2011

Nobody's going to delete it because it's something that should definitely be mentioned. I'm going to add some references so that it's clearer where the details are coming from, but otherwise it was a good addition. Thank you. rpeh •T•C•E• 12:51, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I put it there before but someone deleted it. Emzi43 16:04, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Ah yes, I see. It's always a good idea when editing the Lore pages to indicate where you found your information. We've had several people adding their own fanfictions to the histories and making up geographical details, so some editors tend to be quick on the "Undo" button if it's not immediately clear where information comes from - I've done it myself. If you don't know how to use the style of citations we prefer, just include a link to the book - or even its name - in the text you add. if you can't remember the name of the book, a post on the talk page saying that you read it in a Skyrim book would usually be enough. rpeh •T•C•E• 16:17, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Dragon War

What?! about the original human uprising against the dragons (I beleive led by Alduin) in the late Metheric Era. I think this was placed between his first arival to Tamriel but before the slaughter which forced him back to Atmora. There is a book in skyrim titled "The Dragon Wars" which has a little more detail. I'm sure there are plenty more books in "Skyrim" referencing this event. Jonny Bravo 06:40, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Also Farengar Secret-Fire says something about that war, during the bleak falls barrow quest. Emzi43 20:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Umbriel Crisis?

Not sure if this should be mentioned (wasn't bought up in Skyrim, but was discussed in the novels: Infernal City and Lord of Souls); think it should since it mentions about the second arnesian war (which was also mentioned in the novels).

For those who didn't read the books, a floating city called umbriel appears and practically destroys the Black Marsh with a army of reanimated corpses created by the city itself and marches and destroys anything in its path until it gets to the imperial city. There's some skirmishes like the one at Lilmoth or Cheydinhal. — Unsigned comment by Delos Fandas (talk • contribs) at 06:58 on January 10, 2012

High Profile Wars

This article is amazing. Since most wars in the TES universe are not thoroughly explored, this article has almost nothing to be added to it (except for a few references and an occasional rewording of a paragraph taken directly from a in-game book). The problem this article faces are the high profile wars that are repeatedly edited (and most of the time, those edits reverted). I am of course talking about the Oblivion Crisis and the the Stormcloak Rebellion, the only wars that are seen and relived in-game. I am proposing that separate articles be created for these wars and that they should only link here or be transcluded from their respective articles. -- kertaw48 15:15, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Second. My understanding is that creating single-topic articles is appropriate if there's enough information to warrant it, and there's plenty of info on these two subjects. Minor Edits 17:52, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Done. It should be checked, in case I made any mistakes. -- kertaw48 19:26, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Battlespire Invasion

Shouldn't it be mentioned that the Battlespire invasion is also a significant war, as it is one of the first battle the empire fought against Mehrunes Dagon? — Unsigned comment by 130.157.33.52 (talk) at 05:31 on 6 April 2012

There was barely any forces involved and no known skirmishes. :/ -- kertaw48 05:39, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Which side of The Stormcloak Rebellion does Lore assume was the victor?

Which side of The Stormcloak Rebellion does Lore assume was the victor?--DarthWeezie 21:21, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Neither. Lore also hasn't assumed that they made a truce, AFAIK. This is also the case with whether or not the Dark Brotherhood was destroyed, since there are two mutually exclusive yet equally canon possibilities. • JA^Talk 21:28, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

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