Tamriel Rebuilt talk:Main Page

Before we start this...Edit

I think we need to consider how exactly this should be organized. The way this page is currently set up, it's going to be pretty annoying editing it, because every time you create a link, it's going to look like [[Tes3Mod:Tamriel Rebuilt/Port Telvannis|Port Telvannis]] or maybe [[Tes3Mod:Tamriel Rebuilt:Port Telvannis|Port Telvannis]]. Either way, you end up having to type the namespace, "Tamriel Rebuilt", and the subject of the link twice, every single time. I think if we're going to do this, we should consider creating a Tamriel Rebuilt namespace for this. That way, when you want to make a link, it's just like any other namespace, you simply type [[Port Telvannis]], or just select the already existing text and hit the Ab button on the top of the edit window. Neither of these simple methods will be available if we create all the content as sub-pages of this one like we're doing now, and given the hundreds or even thousands of links that will likely be created as part of this project, I think it's important that we decide before we start whether that's the best way to go. Also, keep in mind that the pseudo-namespaces idea (using two :'s in the page name) has been tried and rejected on the site before. I should also point out that we should not create any pages in the Tamriel Rebuilt namespace until it's actually been officially created (which I think only Daveh can do), as this will confuse the wiki software, and if/when such a namespace is created, any pages thus created will be lost. So really what I'm saying is let's put a hold on this project until we're absolutely sure how it's going to be arranged. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 10:06, 24 January 2009 (EST)

Since we won't be linking into these pages from anywhere else on the site, I don't think it's a problem to use the slash format: [[Tes3Mod:Tamriel Rebuilt/Port Telvannis|Port Telvannis]] looks fine to me. I really, really wouldn't want to see new namespaces created for mods as that could very easily get out of hand. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 11:20, 24 January 2009 (EST)

I wouldn't suggest it for any other mod, but the sheer scale of TR is just monstrously huge compared to anything else. I suppose an alternative would be to create some sort of short-hand template to use for links, because this project could easily be larger than the current Morrowind namespace if given equivalent coverage, at least it will certainly be larger than the Tribunal or Bloodmoon namespaces. When you think of hundreds of pages, with up to dozens of links on each, the slash-format for links is just a lot of accidents waiting to happen - forcing people to type the name twice doubles the chance of a typo, and if that typo is in the second part, it can easily go unnoticed since you don't end up with a red-link. A template could solve some of these problems, but poses a bit of an entry-barrier for new editors expecting to be able to make links the same way they do on the rest of the site. A dedicated namespace solves the problem without confusing people. If you've looked at TR, you'll understand just how massive it is - I can't think of any other mod that even comes close. I think it's not unreasonable to make an exception in this one case. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 12:50, 24 January 2009 (EST)

Is it possible to make a sub-namespace? Might be a cool feature, especially for all of these expansions and large mods. --Tim ^Talk 13:22, 24 January 2009 (EST)

Not with the current wiki software, no. It's possible there's something out there that makes it possible, but I doubt it, as this is one of the only wiki's I've ever seen that even uses namespaces the way we do. (As in, having actual articles in multiple namespaces. Wikipedia has namespaces outside the main one, but mainly for administrative purposes, much like our UESPWiki namespace. Most other wikis I've seen follow their example.) At any rate, in the early days of the wiki, we did have such pages, and it was confusing and made linking a pain - a page like Diamonds for Habasi would be stored at [[Morrowind:Quests:Thieves Guild:Diamonds for Habasi|Diamonds for Habasi]], and every time you wanted to link to it, you had to type that whole thing. Now, of course, you can just type [[Diamonds for Habasi]] from any Morrowind page and it automatically gets expanded to the proper link. But this only works because of the namespace system we have set up. In order for this to work on TR pages, there'd need to be a dedicated namespace just for that. I realize that it's unusual to honor one mod with such treatment and not others, but no other mod comes close to the scale of this one, and the annoyance factor of typing out all those links in full just seems like it's enough to warrant it. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 13:37, 24 January 2009 (EST)

(edit conflict) No... not without rewriting the MediaWiki software anyway. I think Lurlock's template idea is a good one. We're also, as an extra point, going to want to look at some way of indicating which "map" each place/NPC/quest is from. That might be better done with categories though.

Some figures might be useful here. A first, very quick look at maps one and two gives 67 notable NPCs in #1, 50 in #2. Major locations (towns, plantations etc): about 10 in #1 and #2. Other locations, difficult to judge but about 50 each. Quests: about 100 in #1, none in #2 (I might have that wrong). There are about 100 new ingredients, roughly 80 new items of clothing, same for armor, etc etc. There are a lot of books, but at least some of them come from DF. I'm sure somebody from the project could supply exact figures if required.

In other words, if we end up with pages for everything on all six planned MW maps, then it's going to be pretty big, but not unmanageably so. Another thing to remember is that if we decide a new namespace might have been the better plan, we have bots that can do the move. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 13:58, 24 January 2009 (EST)

I think we should proceed with the current organization system and not create a new namespace, at least for now.

If all of the possible pages are created, the project would be large enough to justify a namespace. But at the moment, we definitely don't have enough to justify it, and this is very new territory for UESPWiki. I'd rather wait and see whether the project really generates enough critical mass (enough pages so that readers are using the site as a resource; enough editors that new pages are being created more rapidly than once per week) before creating the namespace.
Daveh has to create the namespace. Given that nobody has heard from him in a month, and given the long list of tasks already on his plate (some much more than a month old), I don't think we can expect a new namespace to be created right away. I don't think the project should be put on hold indefinitely for a purely logistical/organizational issue. Any sub-namespace solution has the same problem, but even worse: first, we would need to identify whether such an extension exists, and then we'd have to wait for Daveh to install it.
Creating a new namespace generates some new questions. In particular, how do we distinguish MW-style and OB-style Tamriel Rebuilt content?
As Lurlock said, we can use templates to make link creation easier.
As rpeh said, if we later decide to reorganize, bots will make the task straightforward.
We may also want to consider whether to tweak the wiki software to make link creation easy on pages organized using this type of system. Again, it can't be done overnight and would require Daveh to actually add the software updates. But it's already been done once, so I'd say it would be easier than finding some (potentially nonexistent) sub-namespace extension. And it means that the pages would not have to be reorganized in the future.

In particular, I really don't think we should be telling any editors to delay creating pages or adding content just because of this question. --Nephele^Talk 15:07, 24 January 2009 (EST)

If it hasn't trickled through already, the powers that be over at TR have officially approved a user-based wiki. Their conditions/request: "Add ONLY articles that belong in the "world" and "gameplay" information sections and keep all organization the same as UESP." As far as the namespace discussion goes - that's all a bit over my head right now, I'm sure I'll understand it all better once I actually try to create a page. So I'll leave that to those of you who know what you're talking about. I will say this as a user - the only way to find this page at the moment is to do a search for it. Mightn't it be listed on and linked from the Morrowind and/or Oblivion top page (as is Midas Magic, for example)? -- Aelina 04:40, 25 January 2009 (EST)

Yeah it filtered through, especially since it was The Gooch who created the article page. I've linked this from the main Mods page for now and just added a very basic books page. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 06:34, 25 January 2009 (EST)

Thanks to those who added more after me, all i did was get the ball rolling, For oblivion, i/we(wiki) should wait till we(TR) release stirk before creating the Tes4 TR namespace etc.. and just get a heap tes3 stuff done... btw that was my first attempt at wikying, so forgive me if it did not cohere to standards etc. and it took me like an hour to get that much done >.< Thegooch 12:00, 25 January 2009 (EST)

I just realized another downside to keeping this in subpages from TES3Mod - Every page is going to sort under 'T' in the categories, unless we explicitly define a DEFAULTSORT on every page. Is it possible to access the sub-page name with the Trail templates so we don't have to do this manually? Or will we need to add a DEFAULTSORT to the pages by hand to make them sort properly? --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 17:50, 25 January 2009 (EST)

Another small 'issue' is that all of the pages that are created are categorised under 'Tes3Mod' - for example, all TR NPCs are given the category Tes3Mod-People, and the breadcrumb trail Tes3Mod:People. I suppose this will only become a problem if/when other mods are added under Tes3Mod. --Gaebrial 08:46, 29 January 2009 (EST)

Yeah - there are a few things like that. I'd been planning to see how many we got before taking another look at whether to move to a proper namespace or not. I'm still inclined to steer clear of a new namespace because we're going to get these same problems with any other mod we document so it's better to fix them now, but if we get too many issues we may have to look again at the whole way of organizing things. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 08:55, 29 January 2009 (EST)

Okay, the Nephele's recent change to the Tamriel Rebuilt Trail (which I copied on the other TR trails) sort of solves the category sorting issues, but there's some snags. As I just noticed with the Quests, any page with any kind of markup tag on it, (NeedsImage, CleanUp, Stub, WIP, etc.) is going to override the DEFAULTSORT set in the Trail template. I semi-solved it on Guar Duty by swapping the NeedsImage and trail templates, but it still shows up under the wrong alphabetization under the NeedsImage and Stub categories. Is there a way to change the markup templates such that they will respect the SUBPAGENAME, while still utilizing the features of SORTABLEPAGENAME? (i.e. removing "A", "An" or "The" from the sortkey) It's either that or we place the Trail template at the bottom of the page instead of the top, so that it will override all other DEFAULTSORTs provided by other templates. Now, the way the Trail operates, it doesn't actually matter where on the page you put it, but it's less intuitive to declare it at the bottom, and it still doesn't solve the problem of trails created by other templates, such as what's happening on Bahrammu or any of the NPC pages that are using Infobox templates. I still think this would all be a whole lot simpler if we just gave TR its own namespace, but if we don't, we still need to find a way to work around all these little snags. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 11:58, 29 January 2009 (EST)

Llothanis?Edit

The text lists Llothanis among the cities on Map #1, but I'm looking at it in the CS, and I can't find any such city. I downloaded the map within the last few weeks, so it should be relatively current. Is anyone else able to find this city? Because I don't seem to have it... --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 21:58, 28 January 2009 (EST)

Then you can't be looking in the right place. Llothanis is at (32,10) and (33,10) and there are 19 internal cells for it too. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 00:42, 29 January 2009 (EST)

That's weird, my version has the city of Gah Ouadaruhn in that location. I guess the city was renamed for some reason, but I wonder which version is "official"? I guess we'd need somebody from the project to clear this up for us... --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 09:03, 29 January 2009 (EST)

Looks like it's changed since you downloaded your copy. From PES, "Llothanis used to be called Gah Ouadaruhn until the latest Map1 release". –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 09:10, 29 January 2009 (EST)

Okay, the version that's linked from TR's site is wrong then, because I just downloaded it very recently. As you can see from the desctiption on this page, it's still called "Gah Ouadaruhn". And there's no mention of the mod you linked to anywhere. Someone might want to inform the TR people of that. (Also not happy about having to register at GameSpy to get it - I really hate the way they operate.) --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 09:48, 29 January 2009 (EST)

I got mine from TES Nexus; I don't like GameSpu much either. That one is definitely up to date. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 09:50, 29 January 2009 (EST)

Okay, then I guess it's just the ModDB one that's wrong. (That's the only one you don't have to register to download stuff.) I'm now doubly pissed at GameSpy because after signing up for their account, I just remembered why I hate it so much - FilePlanet. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to pay for the privelege of downloading what every other site gives for free. But I'll try the TESNexus one. I apparently already have an account there and forgot the password and changed e-mail addresses so I can't get it back - either that or somebody else stole my nickname again, so I had to create a new one, but at least I'm not paying FP for it. Now I wonder how much else is different between the two versions - I did discover a large area on the one I downloaded that was completely bare of trees and rocks - like nobody had worked on that part yet. I just chalked it up to "WIP", and assumed it was just not finished. But if that same area has been completed in the newer version - well, I don't know, I might be missing all kinds of stuff. We'll see once this thing downloads... --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 10:10, 29 January 2009 (EST)

Llothanis is the new name. I was confused at first as well, since my download (I don't remember where I got it) had Llothanis but there was no mention of this place in the TR forums - or very little anyway. In any case, the name was officially changed at some point, I checked before I listed it as such here and found the confirmation buried fairly deep in the TR forum under "Name Dedefecation" - Aelina 09:16, 30 January 2009 (EST)

Main Game FactionsEdit

See Alden the Wanderer and Megrin Utassi. These two NPCs are members of the Oblivion:Beggars and Morrowind:Blades factions, respectively. I have modified the Faction template to correctly link to their 'main game' faction page, but I am wondering if this is correct? They won't (and shouldn't) be listed as members of the faction on that page, so should they instead be linking to a corresponding page specifically for the Tamriel Rebuilt members of the relevant factions? --Gaebrial 03:21, 24 February 2009 (EST)

Yes, there are a few others too... Jafan is in the Anvil faction and there are a few TR3 NPCs in the Customs and Excise faction, for instance. I'd been wondering how to handle these ones myself. I think the best solution may be to adopt what I did for the Shivering Isles. Take a look at Shivering:Bat gro-Orkul's Ghost. The link in the infobox takes you to a very brief description of the Adventurer faction that explains the faction already existed. It also puts him in an SI-only version of the category. Where SI makes large-scale changes to a faction (such as the Creature Faction), the description on the new faction page is more descriptive but still makes it clear that it's a change to an existing faction. In other words, people without SI can see the OB-only faction and people with SI can see how those factions are changed.

I think the TR factions can work in the same sort of way. Have a TR4 page (either Factions_B or Beggars - whichever), list the additions and link back to the OB page. It's going to look slightly odd where there's only one NPC added to the faction, but I imagine there will be the odd beggar or two in Hammerfell that should pad things out. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 03:58, 24 February 2009 (EST)

Sounds like a plan. However...

We would need Tes3Mod Factions Trail and Tes4Mod Factions Trail setting up. I'm not sure what is involved in setting up breadcrumb trails - is it just a case of copying an existing one and changing the namespace (e.g. copy Shivering Factions Trail and change 'Shivering' to 'Tes3Mod' or 'Tes4Mod')?
The Faction Category template will need to be reviewed and modified to take account of the extra level of categorisation - for example, Tes4Mod-Tamriel Rebuilt-Factions-Anvil Citizen rather than Oblivion-Factions-Anvil Citizen - as the current template points you to 'Factions_F' for the relationships (rather than 'Anvil Citizens'). I'd do it, but I'm not sure I understand this template.

--Gaebrial 05:32, 24 February 2009 (EST)

I'm shying away from creating lots of breadcrumb trails wherever possible. I think the Tamriel Rebuilt Trail will do the job after I hacked it for the Spellmaker page at the weekend, unless we want to get creative somehow. As for Faction Category... I looked at that one myself after I realised it didn't work with the Stirk faction pages. It's so complex as it is that I'm tempted to do these faction pages manually rather than use it. It might even be an idea to go for versions of the Faction and Faction Category templates that are specific to mods. It would give us much more flexibility without the need to put our brains through a mangle trying to work out how to do it. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 06:36, 24 February 2009 (EST)

I don't know about the organization for Oblivion, since the game handles factions differently than Morrowind and I'm not involved in that part of the mod, but I think Megrin's case might simply be a bug that'll be fixed in the future. He should belong to the mainland branch. There are a few other mistakes that weren't noticed before because they affected NPC stats, not PC gameplay, such as the stats for the baker NPC class which just don't make any sense. --Gez 06:42, 24 February 2009 (EST)

(outdent) OK, I think I've cracked it. I've modified the Faction Category template to take account of mods. So on TR3 & TR4 faction category pages, you use {{Faction Category|Tamriel Rebuilt}}. I've also modified the Faction Header template to use the Tamriel Rebuilt Trail template instead of trying to find either Tes3Mod Factions Trail or Tes4Mod Factions Trail.

One bonus is that this ~~will~~should work for any mod that gets set up, as long as it's set up the same way as TR3/TR4.

I've also undone my earlier changes to the Faction template, so we can link the TR NPCs to TR-specific faction pages, which link to the 'main game' factions (such as the Anvil Citizen entry that I've created).

--Gaebrial 10:30, 24 February 2009 (EST)

More Faction StuffEdit

So, there I was, happily creating the Faction_x pages for Tamriel Rebuilt NPCs, when I suddenly realised that the factions are organised differently in Morrowind. There aren't any Faction_x pages for Morrowind, just the main page for each faction. So, I don't suppose we need any Faction_x pages for TR3. Do we therefore need 'proper' pages for the Blades and Census and Excise factions? (I've created those two pages as redirects to the relevant Faction_x page) --Gaebrial 12:42, 24 February 2009 (EST)

Makes sense. I see you've also prodded the Queen Mother redirect. If you're sure everything's working (can't test right now), there are others to do at Category:Tribunal-Classes –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 12:47, 24 February 2009 (EST)

Hmmm. Done most of them. Don't know what to do with the Journalist and Caretaker, though. They are used by Tamriel Rebuilt NPCs. --Gaebrial 12:57, 24 February 2009 (EST)

I think they could be removed as well if NPC Summary is changed this way:

|-
!Level
|{{#if:{{{level|}}}|{{{level}}}|<includeonly>{{huh}}</includeonly>}}
!Class
|{{#if:{{{class|}}}|
  {{#ifeq:{{{class}}}|N/A|{{{class}}}|
    {{#ifexist:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{ModName}}{{{class}}}|[[{{NAMESPACE}}:{{ModName}}{{{class}}}|{{{class}}}]]
      |{{#switch:{{{NameSpace}}
        |Morrowind={{#ifexist:Bloodmoon:{{{class}}}
          |[[Bloodmoon:{{{class}}}|{{{class}}}]]
          |{{#ifexist:Tribunal:{{{class}}}
            |[[Tribunal:{{{class}}}|{{{class}}}]]
            |[[Morrowind:{{{class}}}|{{{class}}}]]
          }}
        }}
        |Oblivion={{#ifexist:Shivering:{{{class}}}
          |[[Shivering:{{{class}}}|{{{class}}}]]
            |[[Oblivion:{{{class}}}|{{{class}}}]]
          }}
        |{{SkipLink|{{Namespace}}:{{{class}}}|{{{class}}}}}
    }}|<includeonly>{{huh}}</includeonly>
  }}
}}
|-

But AFAIK #ifexist is a resource-intensive function, so stringing up three of them in a row for every NPC that uses a class from Morrowind might not be a good idea. A more server-friendly solution could be a cns (class namespace) parameter:

If TR, look up in Tribunal:
If BM, look up in Bloodmoon:
If SI, look up in Shivering:
If Mod, look up in {{NAMESPACE}}:{{ModName}}
Otherwise or if omitted, look up in {{NameSpace}}:
(MW or OB should logically be fine falling back to the default handling. AR, DF, BS, RG and SK shouldn't matter here.)

I'm also thinking that, while it's not needed for Tamriel Rebuilt, the same thing should be extended to races just to be safe. If, say, Wizards Islands were to become documented here, it'd bring two new races which shouldn't clutter the Morrowind namespace... --Gez 10:33, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

stupid questionEdit

i don't exactly know if it's complete (that 2 maps) because my english is very bad so lets post there (or somewhere else) something like FAQ for noobs or something

As said on the Map 1 and Map 2 pages, it's still in beta. Also, a total of six maps are planned, so it will only be really complete once all six maps are finished. Although unfinished, there's a lot of content already anyway... --Gez 15:34, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

Added by Plug-InEdit

On many of the Tamriel Rebuilt pages, there's an "Added by Plug-In" section to the relevant template. Someone has proposed removing these, since TR3 is essentially in its own namespace. Looking around, I see at least some of them indicate which Map mod added the place/quest/NPC, which may be relevant info. If anybody has specific thoughts on whether to leave them untouched or remove them (or remove/flag them if no map is specified?), please add to the discussion on the Bot Requests page, and I'll incorporate whatever decision is made into the bot run. Thanks! – Robin Hood ^(talk) 03:28, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

Item Page UpdateEdit

Most of the item pages (Especially the armor pages) need to be updated to match the Sacred East release. Locations of the Necrom Indoril curiass and pauldrons need to be changed for one. I'm not very good at editing the tables myself. The Console Commander (talk) 03:22, 2 August 2014 (GMT)

The problem is, none of the people currently working on TR3 edit the wiki, and most of the people who have worked on the namespace in the past (like myself) are quite busy with ESO. There are some great tutorials online about tables and simple trial and error using show preview should be enough for you to learn how to use them. But that's the reason they haven't been updated. Jeancey (talk) 03:28, 2 August 2014 (GMT)

Okay, I think I understand how to edit the tables after looking at a few. I'll try to update the items and locations for Sacred East over the next week or so. The Console Commander (talk) 13:22, 2 August 2014 (GMT)

OverhaulEdit

Tamriel Rebuilt has gone and is going through some heavy changes. The whole Maps system is a thing of the past, Mainland and Vvardenfell factions will be merged together, and much more. In time these changes have to be applied to the TR3 Wiki pages as well. As I am currently working on a master planning file for the five Great Houses and their corresponding regions I will come to have much understanding of TR3, and therefore probably be viable to make much of these changes on UESP. I am currently in an early phase of these plannings, so much work remains to be done. This will take a lot of time, which means it will also take long to update the UESP accordingly.

At this moment I haven't much to announce, but I thought it plausible to mention my intentions already and open up a place for discussion. My technical knowledge of Wiki editing is near nonexistent, so in the future I will discuss related questions here. --Klep^T|E|C 13:55, 9 January 2015 (GMT)

This is already happened - some factions are merged, maps system is only internal technical issue. With 2018 Marth relise of some new lands (Old Ebonheart and area around it, most probably) there be some lands that not attached to any map relise, and already stated implementation of edits and new quests for old "maps". Maybe remove at least map lists from quest list page?

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