Skyrim talk:Thalmor

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Nov 2011 - Aug 2012

Moved from articleEdit

"After completion of the civil war quest line they will start to appear everywhere. You will get no bounty for killing them, however guards will not assist you." 72.66.215.142 17 June 2012

Can somebody verify this? I completed the Civil War questline, and have not seen an increase in Thalmor encounters. I still encounter them mainly as a random World Interaction. --Xyzzy 18:04, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

In my game...after finishing up with the civil war questline under the Stormcloak the Thalmor, on the roads, will stop spawning. Theirs no more Thalmor prisoners being carted away to prisons. If you had Thalmor Justiciars hunting you down, prior to the Civil war, they will also stop spawning as well.

I was wondering if this is the same for Imperial victory? I heard that the Thalmor still roaming the roads. Raijin (talk) 16:57, 10 March 2013 (GMT)

ConjectureEdit

The in-game book The Amulet of Kings offers major clues about the long-term goals of the Dominion since the Great War's conclusion, cogently implying that the Thalmor are planning to reinstate the First Era's Ayleid Dynasty. The Ayleids derived their military supremacy from the Daedra Princes which they openly worshiped, who in return granted these ancient Mer the command over vast armies of Daedra and undead spirits, with which they ruthlessly enslaved and exterminated humans as they saw fit. The power of the Ayleids was ultimately broken when Akatosh took pity on the greatly suffering humanity and made his covenant with Saint Alessia, which sealed shut the doors to Oblivion and denied the Ayleid the source of this insurmountable military might. In modern times, The Thalmor actively seek to undermine and undo this covenant between Akatosh and the Empire, in order to re-open the gates to Oblivion and gain access to the great power that the Ayleid once wielded.

The ban on Talos worship imposed by the Thalmor is designed not only to instigate deep religious schisms within the Empire on the short to medium term, but on the long term also represents the first step towards the Aldmeri Dominion successfully separating the Empire from its patron gods through the greed and corruption of its politicians, which will ensure the final victory of Mer over Man for the control of Tamriel.

Added content based on in-game sources "The Amulet of Kings", "The Trials of Saint Alessia", "Glories and Laments", "The Great War" and dialogue from the Legate Fasendil and Ondolemar NPCs.) — Unsigned comment by TheBeastFromWhiterun (talk • contribs) at 01:41 on 4 November 2012

I've moved it here because although it strikes true, it is sourced off books written before the Thalmor existed, a journal documenting the war, but postulating no theories, and therefore most of it is speculation. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 01:51, 4 November 2012 (GMT)

Well, that is a bit like asserting it is conjecture to claim neo-Nazi groups seek racial supremacy for whites because Mein Kampf was written before such groups were formed. Thalmor NPCs have numerous dialogue lines which reveal their racial supremacist ideology in no uncertain terms. The Ayleid was a Mer dynasty that enslaved and exterminated humans and ruled supreme over Tamriel. Assuming there is no direct connection between this precedent of Mer supremacy and the Thalmor contradicts the in-game lore, not the other way around. .']['. -=hail the inner beast=- .']['. 02:24, 4 November 2012 (GMT)) TheBeastFromWhiterun‎

"Conjecture" is the perfect word for this. There's no in-game support for the idea that the Thalmor seek to re-open Oblivion gates, or the motive for doing so given here.

It also seems inappropriate to me to assign them motives for the Talos ban absent in-game corroboration, and none of the sources adequately do so. I'm not saying I disagree, but it's inappropriate for us to make such analyses here. This kind of thing is for the forums. We don't want people thinking, "This is most likely true, but..." Rather, we want to promote the mentality, "UESP said it, so it must be true." Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 02:34, 4 November 2012 (GMT)

That is a baseless comparison. To say two groups separate only by mere years, with living people from the first group, can be compared to two identically named groups 1,000's of years apart is simply wrong. Your sources are fallible too, ignoring the sources that existed before the Thalmor take 2, one is a journal that the author, although with the best of intentions, admits that "I have done my best to fill in the gaps with educated conjectures based on my experience as well as my hard-earned knowledge of the enemy." The other are two in-game sources that have nothing to do with the information added. Ondolemar's comment above the section on the article existed before this was added. Fasandil's dialogue about the Thalmor is focused on the events in Hammerfell, which isn't mentioned here, while Ondolemar's other comment's could surely be used to expand the article, but again it his comment's are of a different focus to this passage. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 02:44, 4 November 2012 (GMT)

Not at all. In both cases there is a shared ideology and a common cause among members of the same ethnic group, which makes the comparison directly relevant. Secondly, the various books quoted provide a direct background to the motives of the Thalmor. Thirdly, the quotes by Fasandil exemplify the Thalmor not only duplicate the philosophy of the Ayleid, but also their methods--for as far as they can given the covenant between Akatosh and the Empire obstructing them. Ondolemar likewise directly refers to the decadence of the Empire as a weapon to be used against it during the quest Diplomatic Immunity.

Each of these are logical connections that are supported directly by the in-game content. I'd go a step further actually, and argue that the onus is on those who seek to exclude the passage to provide a logical explanation, supported by in-game content, as to why 1) the Thalmor can not be considered to be emulating a precedent which embodied all they seek to establish, and 2) how the ban of Talos worship is to be considered anything else than a move to undermine the covenant between Akatosh and the Empire, given the decisive advantage the Thalmor would gain from this. .']['. -=hail the inner beast=- .']['. 02:54, 4 November 2012 (GMT) TheBeastFromWhiterun‎

I have sought to disprove your sources, I do not need to provide sources to disprove these theories when they are not sourced in the first place. Again, nothing Fasandil says is in support of this theory, he talks of their tactics and brutality, to mer and men. Yet how far can he be trusted as he was on the opposing side, i.e. his thoughts are biased to some degree. Ondolemar does go into detail about the ban on Talos worship, however there is nothing in-game or out-of-game that provides proof of your theory that they intend on rupturing the alliance with Akatosh, which exists in name only, as the Amulet of Kings was destroyed, resealing the barriers permanently. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 03:18, 4 November 2012 (GMT)

(edit conflict) No, the onus is on you, Beast, since the style guide is on our side. "[G]aps in the article should not be filled in with approximations or best guesses. It is better to have no information than to have inaccurate information because inaccuracies mislead readers and are hard to find and correct." We're dealing in a vacuum of information on the subject of the Thalmor's true motive and objectives. You're delving into original research here, as defined by wikipedia: "Original research is research that is not exclusively based on a summary, review or synthesis of earlier publications on the subject of research. This material is of a primary source character. The purpose of the original research is to produce new knowledge, rather than to present the existing knowledge in a new form." You're producing new knowledge here, not paraphrasing knowledge presented in the game. It's banned in a wiki.

Under your approach, the motives and aspirations of the Third Reich could be deduced from the purported motives and aspirations of the First Reich (the Holy Roman Empire). The Septim Empire should have been filled with monotheistic bigots intolerant of other forms of worship, because that was the belief system of the First Cyrodilic Empire. The point being, you're giving a best guess based on in-game information, not actual in-game information we can corroborate. As Silencer said, Fasendil's comments don't prove much of anything that's relevant here, except that the Thalmor rooted out dissidents, something we already know. Trials of Saint Alessia doesn't add anything substantive to the points you're trying to make, and it's largely OOG anyways. Some of these sources buttress your points, but they don't make them. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 03:31, 4 November 2012 (GMT)

Your issue seems to be with Bethesda, not with me. Both your positions are untenable because they directly contradict the in-game lore. I'll simplify my case. 1) Numerous lines of in-game dialogue establish the Thalmor as Mer supremacists seeking dominance over Man and sole rule over Tamriel. This is not in dispute. 2) Several in-game books establish the Ayleid Empire as the embodiment of every single of the Thalmor's objectives. This, too, is not in dispute. Ergo, the onus is on you to explain, in light of what these numerous and diverse in-game sources are revealing to the player, why the Ayleid and the Thalmor should not be considered directly linked in motives, especially when additional sources consistently are seen to strenghten this connection, not lessen it, a fact you acknowledge. To contend there exists no connections between the motives of the Ayleid and the Thalmor demands that we ignore no less than three separate in-game sources of information on the subject.

Also, an in-game author expressing doubt is irrelevant from our real-life perspective as editors, for it is still in-game content to be quoted from. For the sake of accuracy and completeness we merely should add that the in-game author suspects the notion rather than that he is certain of it. But there is no reason not to include it. .']['. -=hail the inner beast=- .']['.

Our issue is proper adherence to the dissemination of Bethesda's product. In regards to #2, it is on the Thalmor's objectives that you're making leaps. Your assertions about them can't be traced back to an in-game source. You can directly link the Ayleids, the Thalmor, and their motives all you wish, in the forums, but that direct link isn't made in the game, hence we can't pontificate on the subject. We're not trying to exclude relevant information you may be relying upon (properly stated, that is), only your editorializing on that information. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 04:10, 4 November 2012 (GMT)

In practice, you effectively are excluding relevant information on account of questionable tangents, as far as I can tell. I fail to see how the majority of my contribution is a leap, as you put it, when it is based directly on not one but several different in-game sources who each are telling the same thing. Indeed, given the in-game evidence it is more dubious to deny the connections between the Thalmor and the Ayleid than it is to affirm them, which is readily apparent to any who read the quoted in-game books. As it is, your arguments only warrant the removal of one specific line of my contribution--namely, the part where the ban on Talos worship is described as being an attempt to undo the covenant between Akatosh and the Empire. They do not justify the complete removal of the remainder of my contribution. Until such justification is forthcoming, I expect the first paragraph to be re-added. .']['. -=hail the inner beast=- .']['.

(edit conflict) No, in practice, I'm saying that your first paragraph is either irrelevant to this page or else constitutes original research. The Ayleid kingdom and the Thalmor are entirely distinct organizations separated by time and space. Contrary to your assertion earlier, they do not share a common ideology (similar in some respects, but distinct), and they do not share the same ethnic group. The Thalmor are run by Altmer, a separate race of elves from the Ayleids who worship the Aedra, not the Daedra. There's no suggestion that the Thalmor are or plan to become Daedra worshippers like the Ayleids were, or to utilize them as a weapon. The Amulet of Kings, which does not mention the Thalmor, is focused on the now-defunct covenant between Alessia and Akatosh; it has no bearing on this page. It's not even relevant enough to be listed in the "Related Lore" section, nor is Glories and Laments and most especially not the OOG Trials of St. Alessia. The Great War should be on there, though, so I just added it.

We're here to improve, not obstruct. You cite to the dialogue of Fasendil and Ondolemar, so let's look at it:

Fasendil:

"Back in 42 I was stationed in Hammerfell, on leave in Sentinel, trying to track down some refugee relatives who had fled persecution in Alinor. Suddenly an explosion of magic in the refugee quarter. Thalmor mages were attacking the Altmer dissidents who were resisting with magic of their own. I ran to the scene with other Legionaries who where stationed there, but the entire quarter was a smoking ruin by the time we arrived. Everyone was dead. Wholesale slaughter. The Dominion, not content with killing dissidents at home, came to Hammerfell to finish the job. We're supposedly at peace now. But I put in to be stationed here to keep an eye on the Thalmor. I've a feeling they're behind this unrest in Skyrim. And I've seen the face of evil. It was in the air above Sentinel on the Night of Green Fire."

Fasendil's comments are broadly summarized already in a note on the page. You could try expanding the note if you wish. At most, it warrants maybe a sentence in the Overview section stating, "It is suspected by some that the Thalmor are behind the unrest in Skyrim".

Ondolemar:
"You have the honor of addressing a member of the Thalmor. Bask in it.
The Dominion is here, and we're watching you.
This war is such nonsense. All this fuss over their false human god.
The Thalmor saved all of Elven-kind during the Oblivion Crisis. We've been watching over our lands for 200 years. We re-founded the Aldmeri Dominion, an alliance between us and our Bosmer cousins. You might know them from their common name. Wood elves.
We intend to prove the superiority of Mer over Man, one century at a time.
It's a religious matter. The Thalmor do not recognize Talos as a god. He was only a man, and does not deserve to a place in our pantheon. The Empire has agreed to accept our beliefs, and its citizens have a responsibility to cease their heretical worship.
As if this craggy, wretch of a city could give birth to a superiorly bred Mer such as myself. No, I'm not from Markarth.
I was sent here to lead the Thalmor's interests in this corner of Skyrim. It's my mission to root out all Talos worship in this city.
We're the ruling body of the Aldmeri Dominion. Saviors of Mer. Victors of the Great War.
The Empire exists because we allow it to exist, and I'm here to make sure the Jarl of Markarth remembers that.
It's only a matter of time before your whole rotten Empire collapses of its own decay. No offense.
There is peace now, and that peace will continue for as long as it suits our needs. But make no mistake, this is not a peace forged out of necessity between rival nations of equal strength. It is more like the calm between storms. And the next storm, I think, will be far deadlier than the last."

Much of this only demonstrates that Ondolemar is an ***hole. He states some facts we already know. Excerpts of his dialogue are quoted throughout the page, but they don't tell us anything more about the motives of the Thalmor. No hints of them turning to Daedra worship, or trying to undermine any pact with Akatosh, or attempting to mirror the Ayleid style and method of domination beyond their desire to "prove the superiority of Mer over Man". Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 05:39, 4 November 2012 (GMT)

The zeal with which this unconstructive line of reasoning is being pursuid is well-established. This is not the point of contention, however. It is the lack of logical consistency involved in both your arguments. I'll elaborate.

This article presently makes several references to the Thalmor being "racial supremacists", and in those exact terms. Yet, the in-game content itself never actually describes the Thalmor in precisely these terms--it merely logically infers it through the actions of the Thalmor NPCs and their accompanying dialogue, such as: "It is time for you humans to learn your place!" and "You are but a dog, and I am your master!" According to the reasoning employed by yourself and GoldenSilence throughout this discussion, that omission in itself is sufficient ground to remove every single reference to the Thalmor being racial supremacists from the article, because such a description of the philosophy of the Thalmor represents conjecture due to it never being directly stated by the in-game lore--only logically inferred.

Consider me a disciple of the prevailing mentality on this Wiki. If no compromise is reached on this issue, I'll open a new thread that will aim to exlcude every reference to the Thalmor as "racial supremacists" from this article, on the grounds of the same argumention you have employed against including the equally unstated but implied connections between the Thalmor and the Ayleid. .']['. -=hail the inner beast=- .']['.

Well, the point of contention is that your argument is not well-established. We're here to state facts, not get "constructive" with those facts. You've yet to establish where it says the Thalmor are planning to impose Ayleid rule, utilize Daedra and Oblivion gates to subjugate man, or where you've tracked down this unnamed Thalmor who's filled you in on their exact purposes regarding the Talos ban. The fact that you refer to this as a "thread" tells me you're familiar with the use of forums. That's probably where someone did you the disservice of making you think that your assertions were irrefutable in-game TES fact. That's the person who your gripe should be with, not Silencer or I.

As you had nothing "constructive" to say, I'm fairly confident it's obvious that your response was the death throes of your argument. By the way, referring to the Thalmor as racial supremacists is called "paraphrasing". We can do that with in-game information. There is obviously an enormous difference between that and the conjecture you've offered. But if you want to try attacking it, please, be my guest. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 16:16, 5 November 2012 (GMT)

This scenario will set a precedent, regardless of in whoms favor the pendulum will swing.

If we apply the rationale you've used to exclude my contributions with to the remainder of the article's already meager content, you will discover it is possible to reduce the entire article to stub status in a single edit, solely by virtue of the various argumentation you've employed above. That should provide you with an incentive to reflect on your interpretation of Wiki guidelines. If it doesn't, however, I will demonstrate the point through practical example, and we can proceed to objectively assess from there whether your stance results in the improvement or the deterioration of the article's quality.

The rigidity on display thus far is unnecessary for a Wiki which merely covers non-professional literature. It actively discourages the contributions from casual users or visitors, it imposes draconic restrictions on the expansion of articles and it is therefore detrimental to UESP's improvement, as a whole. Before us is an opportunity to address what appears to be an underlying, debilitating problem which I imagine affects many more articles than this one, and we are not going to waste that opportunity. .']['. -=hail the inner beast=- .']['.

If you wish to demonstrate an example of what it might look like, I suggest making it in a sandbox because the page in it's current state was deemed acceptable to be a featured article. If you remove any of the solid, verifiable, irrefutable facts from this page it will be reverted. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 16:18, 7 November 2012 (GMT)

(edit conflict) Our rigidity actually is quite necessary. Without it, our pages would be filled with all kinds of speculation, and it's our goal not to do so. We don't get to say what's fact, the game creators do. I can't speak for the content you've suggested adding to this article, as I'm no lore expert, but if there is no reliable source, it doesn't belong. UESPWiki is meant to be an encyclopedic source for Elder Scrolls information; all speculation based on the verifiable content we provide is best conducted on the forums, or elsewhere. So sayeth the Style Guide:

UESP's intention is to provide readers with reliable information about what they will experience while playing the game, and to provide background information about the events and characters in the game. To this end, the information in articles should provide as accurate a description of the game as possible. The information should also be objective, using facts that can be checked and independently confirmed by other players.

If you're talking about changing policy rather than just making a case for this specific page, you may want to consider moving the discussion to the appropriate policy page. Otherwise, it seems the burden is on you to demonstrate why the information you'd like to add is accurate and verifiable, and therefore in compliance with our standards for article content. ⇠eshe^talk 16:23, 7 November 2012 (GMT)

Leveled Thalmor JusticiarsEdit

I've noticed that there are several different random world events involving Thalmor Justiciars. In most cases (non-hostile), they will carry leveled equipments. However, the Thalmor Justiciars with an execution are not leveled and much weaker than standard Thalmor Justiciars. Need a note? Dreamshadow (talk) 04:05, 28 March 2013 (GMT)

The Thalmor are always leveled, as far as I know. I encountered them at least fifty times escorting a prisoner or trying to kill me and while it's true that the ones with the execution order are a bit weaker, they're not really level 1 either. I have no idea why though... Elakyn (talk) 09:39, 28 March 2013 (GMT)

The ones with the execution order appear to be much stronger at earlier levels. Shooting thunderbold (expert lvl destro spell) at PC lvl ~15 — Unsigned comment by 189.77.189.194 (talk) at 20:57 on 20 November 2013

Rising Threat?Edit

Out of curiosity, why isn't the four volume series Rising Threat included under Related Lore? Would anyone take issue with me adding it there? Voraxith (talk) 05:19, 27 February 2014 (GMT)

Looks relevant to me. --Xyzzy ^Talk 15:06, 27 February 2014 (GMT)

Thalmor combat dialogueEdit

I added a section for Thalmor combat dialogue, but, apparently, characters other than the Thalmor can also use at least some of this dialogue. This surprised me, since many of their combat lines (such as "Don't you see? Elven supremacy is the only truth!") seem custom made for the Thalmor, racist elves that they are. Does anyone know who else can use this dialogue? Also, on the subject of (general) combat dialogue, does anyone know exactly how the combat dialogue used is determined? And is there somewhere that I can document widespread combat lines (such as "Give up while you still can!") which (as far as I know), are not associated with any specific character or faction? Bookwyrm1357 (talk) 22:16, 3 June 2014 (GMT)

They can be said by anyone with the MaleElfHaughty or FemaleElfHaughty voicetypes, Elenwen, or by a member of the Thalmor (with the exception of "I'll see you burn" which can be said by npcs with either of the dark elf voicetypes). There are only 34 named npcs with those two voicetypes, and many of them are either already Thalmor or hostile, so the lines are fairly uncommon. I agree that some of the lines seem out of place. As for how the dialogue is determined, my guess would be that it chooses a random line from all the possible lines. --AN|L (talk) 22:40, 3 June 2014 (GMT)

Actually, if you read the CSList entry, it can be said by either the MaleElfHaughty OR the FemaleElfHaughty voicetypes, BUT it must either be Elenwen or in the Thalmor faction. So yes, it's exclusive to Altmer members of the Thalmor. Some of the taunts here also belong to the Thalmor and have the same basic conditions. Btw I have an offline file on apparently Thalmor dialogue and combat taunts, but we need to agree if it's Thalmor-exclusive first before I can add them. —<({Quill-Tail>> 23:36, 3 June 2014 (GMT)

They are exclusive to the Thalmor; one of them said to Kharjo, "You remind me of cousin's cat. Killed that too!" and I've heard it multiple times, exclusively by Thalmor NPCs. Altmer warlock NPCs use the generic combat dialogue shared by other races, ie, "You'll make a fine rug, cat!" — Unsigned comment by Desterine (talk • contribs) at 18:18 on 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Disappearances part 2Edit

It was asked back in year 2012 if the Thalmor disappear after a certain quest or not. They disappeared from wilderness random encounters and from Jarl's castles/houses after Stormcloaks won the war. Obviously. After Stormcloaks victory their camps are removed and Thalmor are banished from Skyrim. Checked all Holds and traveled a lot. This should be mentioned in the article. 46.166.188.208 23:23, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Well it's not true. The Thalmor still occupy their embassy and Northwatch Keep, Ancano is still at the Mages Guild if you haven't gone far enough into that questline, as well as the other Thalmor involved in the Mages Guild. Agent Lorcalin will still appear on his related quest and Valmir will still be waiting by Forelhost. They will still appear as random encounters and appear on Solstheim. There is no quest that mass removes the Thalmor from Skyrim or any that even just stop the random encounters. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 23:36, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

hippocritesEdit

Thalmor are hypocrites because they say that Talos is a "false god" because he turned into a god. But isn't Magnus a "false god" using their logic?--Igottabombshell4ya (talk) 21:52, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Execution orderEdit

Why did the justiciars have an execution order and do a sneak attack on my level 8 character? I didn't do anything Talos-y. — Unsigned comment by 76.182.6.180 (talk) at 04:02 on 3 July 2023 (UTC)

It's just a world interaction. The trigger is reaching level 8. —⁠Legoless (talk) 09:23, 3 July 2023 (UTC)