Oblivion talk:Factions

Levelled ItemsEdit

I'm not really sure how Wiki works exactly. (The etiquette and what not) So forgive me if I'm going about this the wrong way, but I'm just curious about the fight with the grey prince. When I fought him he had both elven long sword and shield. When my friend fought him he had both dwarven sword and shield, and the writer of this section was in the middle. I'm curious if it changes depending on level, because I was a high level (round 16) when I fought him while my friend was lower. (round 8) Not that it makes a very big deal just don't want people thinking this site is inaccurate. -- Jenic

Yes indeed it depends on your level. A lot of the creatures you meet in dungeons etc and the items that they drop are based upon your character's level. Towards the 25+ area you will find bandits and maurauders wandering around with glass armour on - can make quite a tidy profit out of that ;) Also in the Oblivion gates you won't meet the really nasty bad guys (the daedric princes and fighters) until quite a high level. -- Jimbob0i0

Yes I noticed that change with normal animals and levels and such. Actually just today I was walking around and saw 4 people walking around in glass and deadric armour and I was like, "what in the..." But I was actually talking about the Grey Prince battle and that if it changes depending on level it probably shouldn't say "he has these weapons" since they change depending upon level.--Jenic 21:49, 30 March 2006 (EST)

The weapons mentioned are what he enters the game with; they can vary at a later date if the character's level changes before entering the arena. If you enter the arena at level 1, for example, his weaponry will never change from those in the article at any point. If you enter the arena at level 25, his weapons will be better, but again, they will not change after that point. --HMSVictory 05:58, 19 February 2008 (EST)

Other FactionsEdit

I'm thinking of tying this section in with the NPC sections that are going up gradually. Might be interesting to see who's related to who through factions in this way. Just a start, may do more later. Not sure about including some factions, like those with only one member, for example. Also in many cases, I don't know if there are plot-specific things that happen with certain factions, like people joining and being kicked out, changing sides, etc. But other people can make such corrections later if they want. --TheRealLurlock 19:41, 6 July 2006 (EDT)

Yeah, I'm sorry but, that just seems really pointless, and looks stupid and messy. I don't think its going to help everyone to know that the castle guards and beggars are in different groups. I mean, they are all red anyways, what kind of article are you going to make for them? The city of Anvil page provides all the info on that kind of stuff anyways. --Blamat 12:50, 7 August 2006 (EDT)

Alright, way late, but I made a compromise, and moved the other factions to their own page. Maybe I'll consider filling in more later if I run out of other stuff. It's far from complete, of course, but most people probably don't care, so it's not a high priority. --TheRealLurlock 23:24, 24 August 2006 (EDT)

AdvancementEdit

If anyone knows the specifics of advancement (i.e. after which quests you advance), I think that would be very relevant info to have on the Dark Brotherhood and the Fighters, Theives, and Mages Guild's pages. GuildKnight 22:32, 30 November 2006 (EST)

Expellation GlitchEdit

I really don't know how to explain this, but I keep getting expelled from ALL the guilds I'm in for stealing when I didn't steal. It has happened twice, A bandit attacked my horse and I was expelled. Then I killed a scamp in an oblivion gate and I was expelled. I can't get expelled anymore, or it will be permanent.--Apps001 23:08, 12 January 2008 (EST)

You've probably inadvertently attacked your horse. When you buy a horse, the horse is placed in the same factions as you, so the game treats it as a fellow guildmember. --Gaebrial 05:31, 15 January 2008 (EST)

No one was nearby to see me.--Apps001 10:01, 18 January 2008 (EST)

It doesn't matter. See Mages Guild Suspension and Cast out of the Thieves Guild but basically you can be kicked out even if nobody saw you do the deed. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 10:15, 18 January 2008 (EST)

One Faction or Many?Edit

Can you be in all five of the guilds ("major factions") simultaneously? Are there any factions (major or minor) which, upon joining, prohibit you from being in any other faction? -- Laisren 05:52, 19 February 2008 (EST)

Yes, you can be a member of every faction at the same time, without penalty. Unlike Morrowind, which involved both prohibition and disposition penalties. In fact, part of 100% completion is achieving the highest rank in every faction. --HMSVictory 05:55, 19 February 2008 (EST)

Thanks! This is key information (a frequently asked question from new players, from what I've seen), so I've added it to the article. -- Laisren 19:39, 19 February 2008 (EST)

Mythic DawnEdit

Ive noticed that there are non negative disposition Boosts towards the Player Faction has any one noticed this. Also if anyone tells me about the blades factions, what if you have not joined them yet does that mean you can use the unlock console to open the door and join?

Joining the Blades is entirely optional and no one except Glathier in Skingrad knows whether you joined or not. (Other than the Blades of course) Not joining the Blades won't have any effect on your Mythic Dawn memebership, since the journal entry will always say "My cover has been blown." What cover? But still get you kicked out of Mythic Dawn unless you do everything they ask and never leave the cave or pick up the book. I don't know about the console commands as I've only played it on 360 and PS3 but I've also wondered how you could be in the Knights of the Thorn, Blackwood Company and Mythic Dawn at the same time. The main article does say "You can be in EVERY faction at the same time." "Every Faction" only includes those that PC can join but Mythic Dawn and Blackwood Company are both joinable.--Webdemon00 07:16, 9 September 2008 (EDT)

The Blackwood Company and Mythic Dawn don't count. You only get put in these by performing certain quests, and even then only for a little bit. You may as well call the Creature faction joinable, as you become a member through wearing the Boots of the Crusader. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 07:37, 9 September 2008 (EDT)

Rpeh, as always you fail to dissappoint me. I was thinking about running away from Water's Edge and "infiltrating" the Mythic Dawn to see if they all look like Goblins. Thanks for the laugh.--Webdemon00 06:47, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

Adding Myself To Unjoinable FactionsEdit

Using the console, is it possible to add myself to, for instance, the creature faction or bandit faction? If so what is the command for this? — Unsigned comment by The-manta (talk • contribs) on 28 October 2008

See the Tutorial page. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 13:32, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

thanks (sorry about sign off) I can see many console-induced monster invasions lol The-manta 13:35, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

Stealing from a Faction, then Joining it.Edit

I'm at odds at how to include this information, but it is something of note: if you walk into a Mages' Guild hall (before joining up) and steal items from the building, they will show in your inventory as stolen. When you join the Mages' Guild, those same items will remain marked as stolen, until you put them into a container inside the building and then remove them once more. I haven't tested beyond that, so I don't know if placing those items into any generic container will remove the stolen tags, nor investigated further with other factions/guilds. —Dark Spark 01:40, 26 December 2008 (EST)

No, it won't work. This is because "generic" containers, as you put it, do not belong to the guild from which the items were originally taken. Items stolen from the mages guild belong to the mages guild. Likewise the containers in the guild halls belong to the mages guild. Take an item from a guild container while not a guild member and you're stealing (and the item is marked as such). Put the item in any mages guild container and you're returning the item to its rightful owner, so it loses the stolen tag. If you're then a guild member, you can legally take the item afterwards. That's how that works. The likes of the fighters guild should follow the same principles, in theory. --Dalimyr^{(T ≈ C)} 16:06, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

Factions CleanupEdit

Okay, I've been finding some inconsistencies with how the factions are handled on different pages and I'd like to get some ideas for how we might clean them up.

First of all, the Leyawiin Faction (Leyawiin citizens) isn't treated the same way as the other city factions. In the NPC summaries, all of the citizen factions are listed by their Construction Set name (Anvil Citizen, Cheydinhal Citizens, Kvatch citizens, etc.). In the CS, the name for Leyawiin citizens is "Leyawiin Faction," but it's listed on NPC pages as just "Leyawiin." It might seem like a small thing, but I'd like to change these to display as "Leyawiin Faction" for consistency. We try to have everything else match the game data, so we might as well apply it here too.

Another problem I've come across is NPCs who don't start in a faction, but join it at some point during the game. For example, Amusei joins the Thieves Guild after Lost Histories; this is noted in his summary as well as the Thieves Guild page, but not on Factions_T. Similarly, Jeelius joins the Nine Divines faction at some point (I can't discern it from the script), but the only place he's listed as a faction member is the new table on the Nine Divines faction page. I'm guessing there are probably other cases like these as well. I think it would make the most sense to keep these tables as consistent as possible, which means adding the NPCs who join different factions to the Factions subpages, preferably with notes explaining the different conditions.

And while I'm at it, I might as well mention that I found all of this while attempting to clean up that new table on the Nine Divines page...and I'd really like to propose a redesign of these faction members tables. As it stands, they look a little messy--all different lengths, the icons don't line up--and are basically somewhat difficult to read. I'm running through a few different layouts in a sandbox. I haven't completed a version I actually like yet, but I'm working on a few ideas and I could use some feedback.

So...thoughts? –Eshe^talk 18:23, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, there are quite some inconsistencies regarding factions, and it's best if they get sorted out. I for one would like to see that all NPCs of a faction are mentioned in the tables tables, even if they do not start in that faction. I think that works better than them only mentioned a few lines above the table. Of course, it must be mentioned that they don't start in that faction, but I don't see the problem with them being mentioned in that table. I also would like to have all the factions that an NPC belongs to listed in the faction infobox on the NPC's page, even when they don't start in that faction. That would probably lessen the confusion, and can help to avoid edits regarding this problem, such as the recent edits concerning Hieronymus Lex' factions. ^Talk Wolok gro-Barok _{Contributions} 21:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Plug-in Related NPCsEdit

Should NPCs from official plug-ins get added to vanilla factions? I've seen multiple instances of them being absent (Anvil Citizens faction and the Thieves Den plug-in, as an example). Are these excluded for a reason, or were the lists generated from vanilla Oblivion? And if so should action be taken to add them, or are the specific NPC pages info enough? Legoless 18:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. Yes, they should be in the lists. I imagine I didn't include the plugin when I generated the lists. rpeh •T•C•E• 00:02, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Summoned creatures, and those who summon them: Possible hidden faction?Edit

And I don't mean the Conjurers faction.

I've permanently created Dremora Markynaz using a glitch involving the Daedric Lava Whiskey from the Wizard's Tower plug-in (See here for instructions), and while they're usually highly aggressive towards non-Daedra, they're all friendly towards whoever originally summoned them (that is, drank the Lava Whiskey), even when they've been rendered permanent (legit Dremora, rather than Summoned creatures).

For example, if City-Swimmer or Shadowmere were to drink the Lava Whiskey and summon a Dremora Markynaz, and then undergo the Lava Whiskey glitch that makes Dremora permanent, the Dremora will become friendly towards them, in the same way Dremora made permanent from Whiskey drunk by the Player would become friendly towards the latter.

Not to mention, If you were to create Golden Saints or Dark Seducers with the Shivering Isles permanent summmons glitch in the vicinity of these permanent Dremora, they would be friendly with each other, and not attack.

I have a little theory for this behavior: For a summoning to occur, Players/NPCs and the Creatures they summon are briefly placed into a hidden faction that makes all NPCS and Creatures within said faction friendly towards each other. Since the permanently summoned Dremora/Saints/Seducers are technically Summoned Creatures, even though they now lack their "Summoned" status, the Player/NPC is never removed from this hidden faction, and thus, friendly behavior is possible.

Unfortunately, I only have the Xbox 360 version of the game, so I can't go deeper into my investigation. If anyone can perform these glitches on the PC, and then use the Construction Set to analyze the permanent summoned Dremora/Saints/Seducers and the individuals that summoned them for any factions hidden from the Player's Factions list, I'd be most thankful. Be sure to list EVERY faction that these permanent summons are in, no matter how redundant the results would be. If the Player/NPC is placed into a faction, then list this new faction here. Bauglir100 05:15, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

It's a good theory, but short of reverse engineering the game code, we'll probably never know. To my knowledge, there's nothing like that that's visible in the Construction Set. Oh and the CS doesn't allow you to open saved games, so checking after using a glitch is irrelevant. The only faction that the summoned Markynaz is listed in (just to use that one as an example) is DremoraFaction. – Robin Hood↝talk 23:29, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, after conducting further research here on the site, it turns out the Summoned versions of the Golden Saint and Dark Seducer are both in the "Oblivion Gate Daedra" faction, which is allied with the Dremora "Kyn" faction (which, as you mentioned, includes the Summoned version of the Dremora Markynaz), and vice-versa. And I suppose that the reason why the permanently summoned Dremora Markynaz don't attack whoever created them is because they just so happen to like their "creator" that much, due to the original Summoned creatures (presumably) automatically having a high Disposition towards their original conjurer. The permanently summoned Saints and Seducers not only have a high Disposition towards their creator (i.e. the Player), but they presumably have a very low Aggression, making them friendly towards most NPCs and Creatures, despite being members of the "Oblivion Gate Daedra" faction.

Although, this doesn't really explain why the permanently Summoned Saints/Seducers are completely mute, nor why they disappear if the Player were to leave their current cell for more than three days. Now it's possible that the mute part could be explained by the fact that they do not seem to be assigned to a particular SI-related Faction, but what could cause them and all the other SI-exclusive Summoned creatures created by the Permanent Summons glitch to vanish like this? Since the "Oblivion Gate Daedra" faction is, for the most part, exclusive to the Main Quest, could this be the result of a faction-related script effect that causes all idle Daedra produced by the Oblivion Gates to vanish from the game once the Main Quest ends? Bauglir100 01:23, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Three days is a very suspicious time, since that's how often items respawn. It would be interesting to know if their disappearance is in sync with chests/barrels/whatever respawning or if it's on a different schedule. – Robin Hood↝talk 04:42, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, I've tested it again with another character (before completing the Main Quest), and the Saints and Seducers still disappear after three days! The permanently summoned Dremora Markynaz don't disappear after three days, nor do the Black Bears from the Spell Tomes plug-in (in fact, in the latter's case, even their carcasses are permanent!), so what could make the Shivering Isles permanent summons...not so permanent? Could it be because they are produced by a glitch that is different from the Dremora Markynaz/Black Bear's Permanent Summon glitch?

Well, I'm not going to risk uninstalling Shivering Isles to see if it would work for the SI summons, since doing that would probably remove the Saints/Seducers, anyway. Not to mention, it would take forever to get SI re-installed again (I used a friend's Game of The Year disc to get SI onto my Xbox 360, and I don't have enough MS Points right now to download it again from Xbox Live). If there are any other ideas you have as to why the Saints/Seducers would disappear, or how to stop them from doing so, feel free to list them. Bauglir100 20:10, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the data in the Construction Set, there are a number of flags that are set differently for Saints and Seducers than most other summons, so it's possible that one of those is coming into play. – Robin Hood↝talk 23:30, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. This was probably an oversight on the developers' behalf. But then again, it was probably this same oversight that made the SI permanent summons glitch possible to begin with. I guess if anyone wants to make permanent Golden Saints and Dark Seducers, they'll have to make due with what they got, unless they exploit a patch or third-party mod to make the Saints/Seducers created by the glitch truly permanent.

Interestingly, if you perform the permanent summons glitch with any SI-exclusive Creature that isn't a Golden Saint, a Dark Seducer, or a Flesh Atronach, even if it's two of the same particular creature (i.e. Hungers, Replete Shambles), they'll be completely Aggressive towards each other, though they'll still have a high disposition towards you. Perhaps the summonable versions of Creatures in the Shivering Isles, save for the three I mentioned, are not in a Faction that makes them friendly with each other? According to this site, the Summonable Saints, Seducers, and Flesh Atronachs are members of the same Oblivion faction as most of the Daedra in the main game (apart from the Dremora, which are in their own unique faction), but I guess that Summonable creatures aren't in the Creatures or Undead factions like their regular counterparts.

No matter, though. I'm just glad that I was able to figure out some idea as to why these permanent summons aren't quite as permanent as the Dremora Markynaz and Black Bears created by other glitches. Thanks, anyway! I appreciate this discussion very much. Bauglir100 12:30, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

No problem. While time is short right now with all the Patrolling from Skyrim, I enjoy investigating things like this. I wish we'd been able to come to firmer conclusions about what's going on. – Robin Hood↝talk 22:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

What do the flags mean?Edit

What do the faction flags mean? I know that Evil means you can commit any crime against them without ever getting a bounty, but what do Hidden from PC and SpecialCombat mean? Scout1534 (talk) 01:00, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

I think HiddenFromPC just means that it won't appear in your journal if the player is added to that faction. Not sure what SpecialCombat enables. —Legoless (talk) 02:08, 30 May 2016 (UTC)