Morrowind talk:Spells

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So what is the true formula for custom spells and does it differ from "Standard Circinate" spells?Edit

Shadowblade 23/03/2012

I tried to work out the formulae for Daggerfall years ago, which was compounded by having a built-in per level Magnitude increase so the higher your level the more powerful the spell for the same cost. They also had Chance of Success as a parameter and different areas like Self, Touch, Missile, Burst on Self, Area Target. But they were inconsistent from school to school and spell type to spell type. Intelligence and Willpower, as well as School skill, also affected casting cost and success chance. With skill at 105%, incredibly powerful spells cost 1 mana to cast.

There's seems to be a similar problem in Morrowind. Standard spells that you buy cost less to cast than an identical spell that you make yourself. Some of these purchased spells are much easier to cast than they should be. Perhaps it's to encourage using standard spells? I use the spell maker to get an ordered spell book and to make spells more powerful than most you can buy. Plus I like making progressively more powerful spell families like Burning Finger, Burning Hand, Burning Fist, Burning Bolt, Burning Ball, Burning Storm etc, so they group together and are easier to find in combat.

Intelligence obviously affects total Magicka, but Intelligence (Conjuration), Personality (Illusion) and Willpower must also have an effect? And Luck?

Some of the Charm spells, IIRC, have a cost of 225 and for a character with 100 in everything still has only a 4% chance of success. Others, like Paralysis and Resist Paralysis are expensive, but some Restorations and Conjurations are very cheap considering the power and usefulness of the spells.

I'd love to know what the true formula is for the standard spells, but I suspect some of them just don't fit a formula and the casting cost was selected to make them easy or difficult to cast, depending on their usefulness.

Anyone know any different?

~

I'm not sure what the formula is, but I can clear up some of your confusion about what causes spells to decrease in cost/success rate. Your skills are modified by it's base attribute and luck. That modified skill value is then what impacts the spell cost/success rate. The same applies for other things like alchemy (and is also why you can make "super potions" by fortifying intelligence in Morrowind).

As for a specific formula, I'd imagine you could extrapolate a reasonable formula by using the console to change the skill/attribute values and recording the results. My copy of Morrowind grew wings and flew away (or is hidden somewhere where I cannot find it), so I'm of little help with that. --Tim ^Talk 15:56, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Fatigue, Cost, and SoundEdit

Another thing on my to-test list (unless someone else knows): For most formulas, the Fortify Attack/Sanctuary/Chameleon-type effect is applied after Fatigue is - does this hold true for Sound (and/or the Cost modifier) as well? Spweasel (talk) 15:50, 22 January 2013 (GMT)

Cheap Spells list is missing several spellsEdit

Just a quick check confirms that the store bought absorb health, firebite, and frostbite spells are significantly cheaper than their custom made equivalents. A few others like levitate and absorb fatigue are slightly cheaper to cast when bought.

Looks like Bethesda really did want to encourage use of the built in spells, because I'm pretty sure there are a lot more, especially in the destruction category. 72.222.177.137 21:14, 12 June 2013 (GMT)

"Suicide" is in the wrong column of spellsEdit

It cost more than expected not less. — Unsigned comment by 173.22.105.209 (talk) at 22:54 on 12 June 2014

Fixed. Jeancey (talk) 03:36, 13 June 2014 (GMT)

Ogrul's Spells missing?Edit

Why are the 'Ogrul's xxx-Again' spells available as a reward from the Gathering Muck quest not listed here? Is it because there's no way to get all 4 of them? — Unsigned comment by 109.88.21.136 (talk) at 13:29 on 30 June 2019

Any idea why this might be ? — Unsigned comment by 85.201.233.198 (talk) at 16:21 on 4 June 2020

They are pretty easy to miss. I'm working on adding them. ParadoxPraxis (talk) 21:50, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

And done. ParadoxPraxis (talk) 22:20, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks but they still don't show up for me in the list though. — Unsigned comment by 85.201.233.198 (talk) at 21:39 on 9 June 2020

Hmm, I guess I assumed they would get pulled here automatically. On closer inspection it looks like every spell here has been manually added. This wouldn't be an issue except they don't belong in either the 'cheap' or 'expensive' category due to their status as quest reward... I'll have to think about how best to add them. Gunna add it to my to do list for the time being. ParadoxPraxis (talk) 02:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. — Unsigned comment by 85.201.233.198 (talk) at 15:19 on 11 June 2020

Cost calculation formula in error?Edit

I can't seem to reconcile the formula with cost calculations.

Take Barenziah's Fire, listed just below doing "Fire Damage 50 pts in 25ft for 30s on Target". If the formula is:

( [ Min Magnitude + Max Magnitude ] * [ Duration + 1 ] + Area ) * Base Cost / 40

then this should be

( [ 50 + 50 ] * [ 30 + 1 ] + 25 ) * 5 / 40 * 1.5 = 585 magicka cost.

However, in game, and correctly on the chart, the cost is 567.

I can get to 567 this way:

( [50 + 50] * [ 30 ] + 25 ) * 5 / 40 * 1.5 = 567 magicka cost.

but that adaptation does not work with other spells. — Unsigned comment by 50.35.20.212 (talk) at 22:43 on 5 October 2021

You are correct. The formula is this for each spell effect, summed together for multi-effect spells:

( Min Magnitude + Max Magnitude ) * ( Duration + Area ) * ( Base Cost / 40 ) * ( 1.5 if On Target )

—Dillonn241 (talk) 22:42, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

A working cost formulaEdit

The cost formula seems to have been updated to this: ( Min Magnitude + Max Magnitude ) * ( Duration + Area ) * ( Base Cost / 40 ) * ( 1.5 if On Target )

Using the same example as before though, this means Barenziah's Fire would be: (50 + 50) * (30 + 25) * (5 / 40) * 1.5 = 1,031.25 but the total should only be 567.

The earlier expression of ( [ Min Magnitude + Max Magnitude ] * [ Duration + 1 ] + Area ) * Base Cost / 40 was closer (magnitude and duration are multiplied, then add area, then multiply by base cost), but perhaps "Duration + 1" only applies in certain scenarios? Perhaps any duration > 1 is simply Duration, and if instantaneous, Duration = 1?

Let's try some more:

Greater Frostball, Cost 10, 2-40pts in 10 ft on Target
( [Magnitudes 2 + 40] * [Duration minimum of 1] + Area 10 ) * (Base Cost 5) / 40 * (On Target 1.5) = 9.75 (rounds UP to 10, not down)

Frost Storm, Cost 20, 1-10pts for 10sec in 10ft on Target
( [Magnitudes 1 + 10] * [Duration 10] + Area 10 ) * (Base cost 5) / 40 * On Target 1.5 = 22.5 (rounds UP to 23, not down)

Daedric Bite, Cost 30, Damage Health 50 pts on Target
( [Magnitudes 50 + 50] * [Duration min 1] + [Area min 0] ) * (Base cost 8) / 40 * On Target 1.5 = 30 exactly

Paralysis, Cost 10, Paralyze 5sec on Touch
( [Magnitudes 1 + 1] * [Duration 5] + [Area min 0] ) * (Base cost 40) / 40 = 10 exactly

Medusa's Gaze, Cost 45, Paralyze 15sec on Target
( [Magnitudes 1 + 1] * [Duration 15] + [Area min 0] ) * (Base cost 40) / 40 * (On Target 1.5) = 45 exactly

Shadowmask, Cost 83, Chameleon 40-70pts for 30sec on Self
( [Magnitudes 40 + 70] * [Duration 30] + [Area min 0] ) * (Base cost 1) / 40 = 82.5 (rounds UP to 83)

Absorb Speed [Ranged], Cost 56, Absorb Speed 5-20pts for 30sec on Target
( [Magnitudes 5 + 20] * [Duration 30] + [Area min 0] ) * (Base cost 2) / 40 * (On Target 1.5) = 56.25 (rounds DOWN to 56)

Crimson Despair, Cost 113, Absorb Willpower 5-20pts for 60sec on Target
( [Magnitudes 5 + 20] * [Duration 60] + [Area min 0] ) * (Base cost 2) / 40 * (On Target 1.5) = 112.5 (rounds UP to 113)

Concealment, Cost 90, Invisibility 90sec on Self
( [Min magnitudes 1 + 1] * [Duration 90] + [Area min 0] ) * (Base cost 20) / 40 = 90 exactly

So perhaps the best version of the formula is

( [ ( Min Magnitude + Max Magnitude ) * Duration ] + Area ) * Base Cost / 40 * (1.5 if On Target)

where

• Minimum Magnitude, Maximum Magnitude, and Duration have a minimum of 1.
• Area has a minimum of 0.
• The total is rounded up or down to the nearest integer (1.5 rounds up to 2, 1.25 rounds down to 1).

This needs a little more testing, perhaps with Reflect or Spell Absorption for edge cases. — Unsigned comment by 50.35.20.212 (talk) at 02:14 on 25 January 2022‎ (UTC)

Starting SpellEdit

This has been marked as a question that needs to be answered.

Wouldn't a Breton Healer have enough points to start with the Feet of Notorgo? They would start with 40 Restoration and 60 Willpower. 40 * 2 + 60 / 5 + 40 / 10 = 96. I will have to test this out. --Brf (talk) 12:58, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm. Actually it started me out with 45 Restoration (and 45 Mysticism) . I do not know where the extra 5 comes from. I started with 7 spells: Bound Dagger, Chameleon, Detect Creature, Hearth Heal, Sanctuary, Shield and Water Walking. No FoN. I made a custom class with only Restoration selected from the Magical and Willpower as a favored attribute, and it had the expected 40 Restoration. Only Hearth Heal as a starting spell. No FoN. Either the formula is wrong, or the Value-to-Obtain is wrong.--Brf (talk) 21:27, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The extra 5 likely is due to Healer being a Magic specialization. "Each skill governed by the character's chosen Specialization receives an additional +5" (from Morrowind:Skills) Jeancey (talk) 21:37, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah-ha. Well, the Breton Healer should have had 45*2 + 60/5 + 40/10, which is 106. I also tried starting with Magic, Willpower, and Luck. It started me with Hearth Heal and Bound Dagger. I should have had 107 for that formula for FoN. --Brf (talk) 21:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if the specialization points (the 5 toward Restoration and he 10 toward Willpower and Luck) do not count. I know specialization and birth sign do not count when calculating starting Health from Endurance. --Brf (talk) 22:15, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm. I guess favorite attributes does count toward Health. Just tested it. --Brf (talk) 23:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

So, I made a mod to help test this that added thirteen Mysticism starting spells that started with a casting costs of 5 and increased in increments of 5 up to a casting cost of 65 (for reference, the Value-to-Obtain is the casting cost plus 50). Creating a character with a Mysticism skill of 35, a Willpower of 30, and a Luck of 50 (corresponding to a Value-to-Obtain of 81) resulted in me starting with modded spells up to a casting cost of 30, as expected. However, creating another character with a Mysticism and Restoration skill of 45, a Willpower of 60, and a Luck of 50 (corresponding to a max Value-to-Obtain of 107) resulted in me starting with modded spells up to a casting cost of 50 (lower than the expected 55) ‘’but not the Feet of Notorgo’’, despite it having a casting cost of 45. Additionally, using a character with a modded race that had a racial skill bonus of 500 to all their casting skills as well as a starting Willpower and Luck of 255 (corresponding to a Value-to-Obtain of 1076.5, well above what any of the starting spells require), I still only started with modded spells up to a casting cost of 50 and not the Feet of Notorgo.

I really have no idea what’s going on here. My initial thought was that there was a cap on the formula that prevents you from starting with a spell that has a casting cost above 50, but that wouldn’t explain why I couldn’t start with Feet of Notorgo. The formula could be incorrect, but I don’t think that’s the case since it seems to be accurate for lower casting costs (although I didn’t test this very extensively). I updated the section to reflect what I found while testing, but it would be nice if we could get a conclusive answer on what’s going on here. Ohnoitsmangofett (talk) 09:00, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Been testing this too, a while back, out of curiosity. Probably should've recorded my findings had I known other people would also be interested in starting with Feet of Notorgo. In any case, I stumbled upon the research of the good folks over at OpenMW. If we assume they're preserving as much original behaviour as possible from Morrowind, it looks like the game is using a simplified formula to compute a starting spells's "cast chance":

2 × Skill level + Willpower/5 + Luck / 10 - Spell Cost

Unlike the actual cast chance, the formula ignores any effects due to Fatigue or Sound, since they really shouldn't be relevant yet during character creation. The computed value is then compared to fAutoPCSpellChance, which is 50 by default. As demonstrated by examples here as well as in the talk pages for Destruction and Restoration, a Breton with Restoration as a Major skill stands the best chance to start with Feet of Notorgo:

• 51% "cast chance" with Willpower as a favored skill
• 59% "cast chance" with Magic as a specialization
• 61% "cast chance" with both of the above

Furthermore, Bretons' starting magicka of 75 is certainly more than enough to cover the 45 magicka casting cost of Feet of Notorgo. It can be further boosted by having Intelligence as a favored attribute and/or having a birthsign with a Fortify Maximum Magicka effect.

However, OpenMW research also documents additional checking done if the spell modifies an attribute or skill. The player's corresponding attribute or skill needs to equal or exceed iAutoSpellAttSkillMin, which is 70 by default. Unfortunately, female Bretons' starting Speed of 40 is well below that; it's worse for male Bretons who have a starting Speed of 30.

As a last-ditch effort, I created a female Breton with Willpower and Speed as favored attributes and The Steed as her birthsign; their +10 and +25 Speed bonuses brought her starting speed to 75, which should have been enough to fulfill the attribute criteria for starting with Feet of Notorgo, but it still didn't. From this, my hypothesis is that for starting spells' attribute / skill criteria, only the base values are taken into consideration. Boosts from abilities conferred by birthsigns are ignored, in much the same way the +25 Endurance from The Lady is not considered when computing the player's starting health.

Of course, reiterating my disclaimer that I'm assuming OpenMW research closely mimics Morrowind behaviour. TLDR: Feet of Notorgo is an absolute no-go. Salamangkero (talk) 02:35, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

That seems like a pretty high starting attribute. Isn't 60 the highest you can possibly get using only base and favorite? We have already seen that the Lady birthsign raising Endurance does not affect starting Health. I would assume the other signs would not affect their computed stats either. --Brf (talk) 16:27, 27 October 2024 (UTC)