Skyrim talk:Free Skill Boosts
Initial Concerns after Creating PageEdit
I wanted to provide a more detailed table than the initial table I created, so this is what I came up with. I tried to set up the table to make sense for as many of the entries as possible, without too many additional notes. Here are some issues I have with the way I've done this:
- "Questgiver (Location)" column
- Azzadal, at Bard's Leap Summit— as far as I've seen, this whole row is from something which is not considered a quest (miscellaneous or otherwise). After the player decides to jump off this ledge, Azzadal appears to tell his tale. I think it's appropriate to put him in this cell, but do I need a note below the table explaining this further? He is not technically a questgiver, since it isn't a quest...
- Angi, at Angi's Camp— This one's not as bad as the Azzadal entry, because it's obvious the entry starts with her (you must speak with her to begin the practice). However, it is not actually considered a quest that I have seen, so the same applies.
- "QuestName" column
- Jump from Bard's Leap Summit— not considered an actual quest... should I put this entry in parentheses? Or mark it as different in some other way?
- Complete Archery Practice— same as above
- In the "QuestItem/Target" column— Most of these are items you must obtain to complete the quest. For those that don't have any sort of item or target, I just entered "N/A", but...
- Irnskar Ironhand— I put him here because he is the "target" of this quest. Since this is the lone entry to which this applies, should I simply put "N/A" instead, and change the column heading to "QuestItem"?
- all the Oghma Infinium information
- I have spread this information out to fit into the column headings as best as I could, but it just doesn't fit in general. I would love to keep the first cell of the last three rows the same, as the skill boost section still applies... but is there a way to merge the rest of the cells in each row? Below is what I would like the last three rows to look like, but I don't know enough about tables to do this while keeping it part of the same table (or at least appearing to be part of the same table)
| +5 Alchemy +5 Light Armor +5 Lockpicking +5 Pickpocket +5 Sneak +5 Speech |
Select "The Path of Stealth" when reading the Oghma Infinium after completing the quest Discerning the Transmundane. |
| +5 Alteration +5 Conjuration +5 Destruction +5 Enchanting +5 Illusion +5 Restoration |
Select "The Path of Magic" when reading the Oghma Infinium after completing the quest Discerning the Transmundane. |
| +5 Archery +5 Block +5 Heavy Armor +5 One-Handed +5 Smithing +5 Two-handed |
Select "The Path of Might" when reading the Oghma Infinium after completing the quest Discerning the Transmundane. |
And here are some questions that I would definitely like feedback from other editors on.
- Links— I do think that certain entries in the table should be linked, but the problem is, the majority of the entries in this table are things which are often made into links on various articles across the wiki (such as NPCs, locations, quests, items...) and I don't want to create a table which is basically a link-overload. I thought about only linking to specific entries, but I don't want it to be inconsistent either. Plus, if it moves to an actual page, other editors may decide they need to add links where I chose not to insert them, so there's that too... So, links or no links?
- I have decided to include links for everything, given the entry isn't linked already. Alphabetface 23:58, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
- Sorting the table— Right now, I have two columns set as 'sortable' while the rest are not. It makes sense to me to sort the "Skill Boost" column because someone who is looking for how to gain a free skill boost in a particular skill can find it more simply that way, and I believe that players are likely to search for this information. The "QuestName" column has also been set to sortable because of this note. I figure it makes it easier for people who don't know why they can't start a certain radiant quest, as they may not realize they have another similar quest active. Make sense?
Okay, those are my thoughts on what needs improving. If you could place your input in a separate section from my original post here, I would appreciate it. Thanks! Alphabetface 16:56, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
FormattingEdit
Considering your question about keeping the table while having choices listed, the Questgiver column could have Oghma Infinium: "The Path of ___", with an asterisk leading to a footnote noting that those with asterisks are mutually exclusive. If there is a way of merging squares in a chart, I am unfamiliar with it. With the two that aren't really quests, I think that moving N/A to the Quest column and the description to the Quest Target column would work out. Also, the Kill a Vampire/Bandit Leader/etc. quests have radiant targets, right?
For the QuestItem/Target Column, I think it could safely be called Quest Target. The items are the targets of the quests, the things that you want to collect.
I think it wouldn't hurt to add another column for the location of the questgiver, instead of keeping it in parentheses.
I think that sorting based on the amount of skill boost that is given, and then sorting that alphabetically, would be the best way to sort. Only three of the entries are out of order based on that.
Great work on the page, by the way. --Velyanthe 00:39, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
- I haven't really touched the 'Oghma Infinium' entries, because they just don't really fit. I need to find someone with a better understanding of tables to help with that; if there's a way to merge cells, I'd prefer doing it that way for sure.
- The 'Kill the Bandit Leader' quests are radiant, but the 'Kill the Vampire' quest is actually a specific quest in a specific place, so those were already right.
- I changed the QuestItem/Target column to Target, good idea. Also, I separated the location, as you suggested, though I haven't gone back and linkified that column yet. I thought about doing that originally, I'm not sure why I decided not to though, haha.
- I'm not completely sure what you meant about the quest order... I changed it a little, was that what you meant?
- Thanks so much for the input, I was actually really hoping you would be among the first to give me feedback, I find myself a little bit in awe of you as an editor, haha. Thank you! Alphabetface 01:00, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
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- With the Kill the ___ quests, I was thinking about the Target columns, as they are at N/A right now.
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- It does seem like a huge amount of links, but that's the whole point of the table, I suppose.
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- That is what I meant about the quest order, yes.
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- I'm honored that you admire me as an editor. I was considering posting something similar on your talk page earlier, since you've made a lot of awesome edits lately. --Velyanthe 01:08, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
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- Oh, I didn't even think about the targets for those quests! Thanks, I completely missed that. I will get to it when I'm done here. And as for my edits, I've just got way too much free time lately, and need something to keep my mind occupied so that I don't get too anxious about the baby that won't be in my belly much longer(eek). But thank you :) Alphabetface 01:28, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
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CommentsEdit
On my 8th day as a contributor having seen both your pages I am having my penny's worth. Technically is the oghma infinium just a superpowered skill book. That aside the table looks untidy to me in its order with all the skill links. Perhaps listing the skills by class(magic/stealth/warrior) with Oghma infinium first with all the links followed by the single point quests. eg magic oghma, alteration, illusion, etc then stealth oghma, etc.
This table would have really useful to me when starting to look but i went to each skill to learn how to increase it, more links to this table would have saved me time looking up each individual skill, but where to insert these links i dont know.--The Silencer 04:08, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
PS. would a note saying that all non merchant trainers can be pickpocketed thus being technically 'free', be out of sync with this page--The Silencer 04:12, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- At the bottom of each skill page is a section listing some of the free skill boosts, with the heading including a link to this page, so it's already on the skill pages. As for the table layout, it's set up by magnitude of the increase and, within magnitude, alphabetically (so, all +1 boosts are at the top, and they are all sorted alphabetically in relation to each other). If Alphabetface doesn't work on it tonight, then tomorrow I'll make up a few layouts sorted by skill class (stealth, combat, magic) in a sandbox and see how it looks.
- I think that such a note about non-merchant trainers would not fit on this page, since that depends on whether or not you're good at pickpocketing. As for follower trainers, it's already mentioned on the trainer page. --Velyanthe 04:21, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
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- (edit conflict) Both my pages? There are a few pages on my watchlist which I have made many contributions to, but this is the only one I have created myself.
- -Though the Oghma Infinium is a glorified skill book, as you said, this page is about free skill boosts that you can get from doing quests (technically, the Bard's Leap Summit and Angi's Practice entries are not quests, but I consider them non-journal quests in this case). So it definitely belongs here. Unfortunately, the entries don't fit with the rest of the table, as you've pointed out (and I wholeheartedly agree). I struggled with how to format the Oghma entries from the very beginning, when all of this was still just notes in a sandbox. I actually had it separated into the same columns as the other entries at first, trying to fit relevant information into column headings which simply didn't... well, fit. After looking at other well-formatted tables on the site, this was what I decided on. I figured keeping it simple was the best way to go. But the great thing about UESP is that it's a wiki, which means editing is encouraged so that all content can be improved over time. So if you think something would work better, try it out. (In the case of revamping the bulk of the page, I would recommend trying something in a sandbox first, but it's not necessary.)
- -I originally had the table sorted with the skills in alphabetical order. I changed it after Velyanthe's feedback in the section above, but, again, if you feel it can be improved, do so. While I initially created this page, it is now an official page on the wiki, which means it can (and should) be edited mercilessly with the goal of improvement in mind. That's what the wiki is all about.
- -Unfortunately, this page wasn't created until a few months after the game was released, and it probably would have been much more useful back in November when a lot more people would have sought out such information in this way, but hopefully it will still help first-time players, and anyone else who comes across it. There are links to this page on each of the individual skill pages, as well as the Skills page and Leveling page, and if you know of anywhere else it would fit, please add the link!
- -As for the note about non-merchant trainers being pickpocketed, I don't believe it should be considered 'free' since pickpocketing is 'technically' stealing, and the free training which is already listed is something you're actually allowed to take legally (your followers actually allow you to take this).
- -Anyway, sorry for rambling on so much, but since this was my first major project after becoming a registered user, I can't help it. I put a good amount of work into it, since I knew nothing whatsoever about creating tables before I made this page. I really appreciate your feedback, it's nice to know someone's actually looked at this page in the last month. :)
- ABCface◥ 04:55, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
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- Both users pages. I never noticed that was a link to this page, and i'm staying away from tables at 5am local time. The oghma infinium might go like - Septimus Signus / Septimus Signus's Outpost / Discerning the Transmundane / Oghma Infinium / Septimus Signus's Outpost. Also 'Outside of Windhelm' to Windelm Docks?--The Silencer 05:14, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- The userpages for Velyanthe and myself? I don't get what you mean, and it's only nearing midnight here. Eh, that's not important...
- Anyway, I originally had the Oghma Infinium entries like this:
- Questgiver- Oghma book
- QuestName- Discerning the Transmundane
- QuestTarget- The Path of (Whatever)
- There were less columns then, and I think the destination column had 'N/A' written across the board. I've started messing around with it, but it definitely still needs work. I need to get some sleep though, 'cause I've been on here way too long already tonight. Tomorrow I'll see about messing with the Oghma entries and some other details. The Windhelm Docks suggestion is good, I'll go ahead and change that now. ABCface◥ 05:49, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- Both users pages. I never noticed that was a link to this page, and i'm staying away from tables at 5am local time. The oghma infinium might go like - Septimus Signus / Septimus Signus's Outpost / Discerning the Transmundane / Oghma Infinium / Septimus Signus's Outpost. Also 'Outside of Windhelm' to Windelm Docks?--The Silencer 05:14, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
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(←) How do you feel about this format? I was thinking about it last night and thought I'd test it out. I like it, but it seems wordy. I copied the entries from each skill page, so they're not consistent and there's too many links, but I was just testing out the style. --Velyanthe 16:04, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- I think I prefer this layout, it is a summary page is it not. Also the oghma infinium bug is well reported (and others like the bards), so a bugs section to explain where to go seems right.--The Silencer 16:59, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- By "this layout", you mean the already existing page with the chart? --Velyanthe 17:02, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry. I prefer your layout.--The Silencer 17:52, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, I'm gonna have to agree with you both on this. The list format looks much better, though it was inconsistent and too linky. I went ahead and started working on it a little further here (I didn't want to mess up your sandbox too badly, Velyanthe, in case you didn't like my changes). What do you think of my changes so far? ABCface◥ 18:35, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- The contents table helps. The section detailing what is included in each section might but deemed unnesseccary[?] but it looks tidier and i would keep it.--The Silencer 19:05, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- I mostly did the description of each section just so I had somewhere to put links other than the section headings themselves. Got any other ideas of how/where to place those links?
- -Silencer: Thanks so much for initiating a complete revamp of this page. I definitely think the direction we're going with this is much better, and if it wasn't for your feedback, it wouldn't have happened.
- -Velyanthe, thanks for deciding to try it as a list. It looks a lot less cluttered that way, it's simpler and cleaner for sure.
- ABCface◥ 19:23, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- The contents table helps. The section detailing what is included in each section might but deemed unnesseccary[?] but it looks tidier and i would keep it.--The Silencer 19:05, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, I'm gonna have to agree with you both on this. The list format looks much better, though it was inconsistent and too linky. I went ahead and started working on it a little further here (I didn't want to mess up your sandbox too badly, Velyanthe, in case you didn't like my changes). What do you think of my changes so far? ABCface◥ 18:35, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry. I prefer your layout.--The Silencer 17:52, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- By "this layout", you mean the already existing page with the chart? --Velyanthe 17:02, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
(←) PS: I just moved the Table of Contents to the other side of the page, because its length was bothering me. Was this a good move, or am I just being weird? ABCface◥ 19:27, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- Leave the description with the links, it works. I was thinking of having the table across the page, combat, magic, stealth, with the skills underneath, but i cant get it formatted properly. Will you see what that looks like, thanks.--The Silencer 19:54, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
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- Something I did turned out alright? Madness!
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- Silencer, I'm not sure what kind of table you're talking about. If you're talking about table of contents, though, that wouldn't work out--I don't know if it's possible to format it, and it would be very out of place compared to other pages. And I must second Alphabetface's thanks on initiating page changes, it's more of an article than a table now.
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- Alphabetface, the table of contents looks much nicer on the right side, I was uncertain how to deal with that, it looked kind of insane, unless there's a way to automatically hide the TOC (like Wikipedia does sometimes). There's still some inconsistencies in wording, but it looks much better than before, and much less link-y. --Velyanthe 20:22, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
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- Moving the quests the have all skills finish with bards and then oghma makes sense to me. The TOC on the left is a lot better than where it was, I'll let someone else improve it if they can.--The Silencer 20:50, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
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- What I was thinking was to have the TOC still there, just hidden as if you had pressed the "hide" button on it.
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Edit BreakEdit
This is Velyanthe's Sandbox and this is ABC's Sandbox. For quick links.--The Silencer 21:25, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
I did some editing on abc's sandbox, but it was undone. Have a look on the history to see if its ok.--The Silencer 20:54, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- I moved the table to abc's sandbox (hope you don't mind), it's exactly what i meant. The toc can go and each skill links to further down the page. [Thank's for the undo abc]. Can we move down here because the previous section is far too big now. abc's sandbox is the i'm concentrating on just for consistency.--The Silencer 21:14, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- I think that the TOC should be kept, it wouldn't be obvious that the new table is a TOC. All the skill links could go in the table, though. --Velyanthe 21:18, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- I think we are nearly there. Perhaps it's time to decide which one to focus on.--The Silencer 21:25, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- I've updated the table on my sandbox, where the TOC fits nicely on the left now. I'll wait for ABCface's input before doing anything else, see if she picks out any glaring formatting errors I've made :P --Velyanthe 21:48, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- Works for me.--The Silencer 22:07, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- I've updated the table on my sandbox, where the TOC fits nicely on the left now. I'll wait for ABCface's input before doing anything else, see if she picks out any glaring formatting errors I've made :P --Velyanthe 21:48, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- I think we are nearly there. Perhaps it's time to decide which one to focus on.--The Silencer 21:25, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- I think that the TOC should be kept, it wouldn't be obvious that the new table is a TOC. All the skill links could go in the table, though. --Velyanthe 21:18, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
(←) Okay, sorry it took me a while to get back to this. Now that LittleDude's asleep (hopefully for a while) I will have some time to look at everything and work on this for a bit. I'm adding a notice to the top of the sandbox so that patrollers know it's okay for you guys to make edits there, so hopefully that won't happen to you again TS. Vel, if you look at the SR:Creatures page, there's a manual TOC there, which is what I think TS had in mind. (Correct me if I'm wrong, TS.) But I agree that the regular TOC should stay, and I'm going to make some minor edits to my sandbox shortly to hopefully improve it a bit. I've been copying certain things from Vel's sandbox into my own just 'cause I feel a little weird editing that one myself, but you are both free to edit mine as you see fit. I will be working on it for a while as soon as I'm done here though, so maybe wait a little while before jumping in there :P Thanks to you both again for this whole discussion/project. :) ABCface◥ 02:56, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
- I spent maybe an hour trying to format that table, they're fun but I never know how to do that. They're crazy.
- I was wondering if it might be beneficial to bold the skills instead of making them headers, but I thought that the text might be too small. it looks nice though, and I think that what's in your sandbox right now is excellent and could go on the page. --Velyanthe 19:42, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
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- All right, I'm gonna make some minor tweaks to the footnote symbols (I switched the footnote symbol on purpose to add a second one, but your most recent change to my sandbox pointed out that I wasn't completely consistent with them all anyway) and as soon as I'm done with that I'll implement the revamped page. Thanks for the help, to you and TS! :) ABCface◥ 19:56, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
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- Glad to help. I looked at some of my earlier talk contributions, just want to say that I think clearly at 5am but its hard to translate that coherently. Signing off--The Silencer 21:00, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
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CatagoriesEdit
I think the table you are creating in your sandbox is much more user friendly. I did notice one thing that might be helpful: the "Evil Entry Which Doesn't Fit Into Organization By Standard Skill Classes" is a Stealth class upgrade (remember that the Light Armor skill is a stealth skill in Skyrim) and related to that, the "Kill the Bandit Leader" given by Annekke Crag-Jumper, is also under "Stealth" for the same reason. Hope that helps. Coronus 22:18, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, I realized that a while ago, but actually started working on something different in a different sandbox. Sorry about that. I have four sandboxes I've been using to play around with, and I linked to more than one of them from this page. That was completely my fault, and I'm sorry for the confusion! Anyway, thank you for pointing that out, I don't know what I was thinking at the time, haha. ABCface◥ 02:42, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Smithing is listed as having +4 total boosts in the first table, lists only 3 boosts in lower sectionEdit
Self-explanatory from title. Something's missing on this page. — Unsigned comment by 209.6.231.174 (talk) at 12:16 on 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- "+1 to all Combat skills for completing the quest Rjorn's Drum for Giraud Gemane." -- SarthesArai Talk 20:40, 25 August 2016 (UTC)