Lore talk:Greymarch

PredecessorsEdit

Should we include in here anything from the book "The Predecessors". Namely the idea that the book, by studying different ruins, recognizes periods of thousands of years where there is no evidence of greymarches?Woodhouse (talk) 20:33, 12 January 2014 (GMT)Woodhouse

Yes the book recognises a lack of evidence, but it doesn't suggest that there were none. That being said, a note may be applicable noting that there is a huge gap between the ages of the visible ruins. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 21:07, 12 January 2014 (GMT)

Once Every EraEdit

Both Sheogorath and Jyggalag state that the Greymarch starts every era, not every thousand years. Shivering:Sheogorath says, "An event. A movement. An apocalypse of sorts. Happens every era, at the end of every era. Which is to say, now. The Greymarch comes, and Jyggalag walks. Or runs. Never skips, sidles, or struts. Mostly, he just destroys everything around him." and "I don't like it, having to rebuild My Realm every era." while Shivering:Jyggalag says, "Once each era, I was allowed my true form, conquering this world anew. And each time I did, the curse was renewed, damning me to exist as Sheogorath." —<({QT>> 00:20, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

It comes from The Predecessors, which says "repeating itself every 1,000 years without fail". Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 00:39, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

Sorry for jumping the gun with my edit, but I don't think The Predecessors is conclusive. At least, not in the way we're using it. Perhaps a note on the matter would be better. Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 00:42, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

"Though the Greymarch is only said to happen at the end of every era, The Predecessors speaks of a cycle of destruction in the Shivering Isles which repeats every 1,000 years without fail." How's that? I did a CSList search, by the way; there doesn't seem to be anything else of relevance. Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 00:47, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

That sounds good to me. —<({QT>> 00:57, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

Personally I'd give precedence to Yngvar's accurate measurement of 1,000 years over the prophetic fluff about "eras". If they're going to dedicate a whole book to explaining the cycles of destruction, it's probably correct. There were only four Tamrielic eras as of Shivering Isles, and we're given no indication that these are even the same eras talked about by Sheogorath. This is a case of being given an accurate date and choosing to ignore it. As such, I think it should be re-incorporated into the article, with a note explaining the possible confusion due to the use of the word era in this context. —Legoless (talk) 01:56, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

Lol. That sounds fine to me; whatever you folks wanna do. Regardless, you all have my promise I will never touch this page again. Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 02:10, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

I see now, thanks for clarifying. Come to think of it, yeah, the word "era" is pretty unclear here. The note could say, "According to Sheogorath, the Greymarch happens at the end of every era." —<({QT>> 05:14, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

Just wanted to drop in and say I agree with Legoless. There's no indication that Shivering Isles' eras are in line with Tamrielic eras, and an "era" in the Shivering Isles could easily just be a 1000 year span. On that note, back in Arena, it was stated that each era lasts 1000 years, an idea that was clearly ditched later on for Tamriel, but may have been held onto for some other realms. --Enodoc (talk) 16:07, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

(←) I've actually gone back on this due to Sheogorath's comment in Skyrim, which says "every few thousand years". Since the Loremaster's Archive has confirmed that the Greymarch mantling thing happens every time, we now have two dates, so I've moved the 1,000 figure back to the Notes. —Legoless (talk) 23:07, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

So according to this what happened to the original Jyggalag?Edit

This lore seems pretty crappy, Haskill has no changes after the ending of the GreyMarch in Shivering Islands, and even if a person replaces Sheo, and the previous Sheo replaces Haskill, there's no explanation to what happened with the original Jyggalag. He couldn't have been destroyed since a daedric prince can never dissapear, he's neither present at Shivering since he was replaced. ZeniMax really made an absurd mess while creating the lore for TESO — Unsigned comment by 179.40.87.35 (talk) at 19:27 on 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Haskill might not change in Shivering Isles, but neither does the player immediately grow a white beard either. Nothing "happened" to the original Jyggalag, he's just apparently cursed to take on not only the Prince of Madess but also his chamberlain for all eternity. It's a pretty good retcon. —Legoless (talk) 19:29, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Nope, Hero of Kvatch wouldn't be Sheo for all the eternity according to this, he would become Haskill in the next era and then in the other era coming he'd just vanish or something like that.

In my opinion that makes TES games quite contradictory at one point, Bethesda says that they want the player to have full freedom in the game but at the ending (except Arena and Morrowind) you end up just becoming a mere puppet be it a puppet from Hermaerus Mora or a puppet of Sheogorath, and that's quite ridiculous — Unsigned comment by Alangme (talk • contribs)

I didn't mean they'd say the same, but rather Jyggalag manifests as both Madgod and Chamberlain simultaneously, through an unending cycle of mortal hosts. Regardless, opinions don't have much to do with improving the article and are better suited to the forums. —Legoless (talk) 12:55, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

HaskillEdit

I have had similar questions about my 'nature' from Alessandra, Legoless, and an Unnamed One, so I suppose I must address the matter. I am a Vestige, all that remains of a mortal from your world who 'mantled' Sheogorath during an event in a previous time. As a fragment, my memory of the event is … fragmentary. I am hazy on the entire concept of 'mantling,' but it had something to do with Lord Sheogorath, myself, and this Jyggalag of whom you speak. I have asked the Mad God to explain it to me, but he just laughs and says maybe he'll tell me about it 'next year,' whatever that means.

This is the full quote from the relevant source. It is quite different from what we hear from the Haskill in TES4, who has zero knowledge of any mantling. I don't see how you can infer that there has only been a single Chamberlain Haskill when it seems abundantly clear that the champion's transformation into a vestige is part of the cycle. —Legoless (talk) 19:26, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

While it is not unlikely that several such champions have become Vestiges, and possibly Haskill himself, no source ever states, or implies that. What we know is that Haskill was a mortal who mantled Sheogorath and became a vestige. That's what we know and what it should say in the lore page. Speculation has no place in the lore pages, however likely it is that several champions have been Haskill. Aran Anumarile Autaracu Alatasel (talk) 20:18, 15 October 2017 (UTC)