Lore talk:Gods/Archive 1

This is an archive of past Lore talk:Gods discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Namespace

Looks like this info should be in Tamriel rather than Morrowind namespace.

Wrye 21:25, 19 Feb 2005 (EST)

Perhaps this particular version of the pantheon should be limited to the Morrowind deities...the Tribunal and, at least, the 7 primary daedra princes (anticipations and the four corners)...maybe we could include all daedra, although the others aren't really needed.

Switch 10:01, 28 Apr 2005 (EDT)

EDIT: Additionally, we could include the saints as well, if we wanted to deviate from the pantheonic list.

I think you should keep the list as is.

It shows the list of the gods of every culture as they are in (the Game) Morrowind. Bethesda might change or alter the list for Oblivion and other games.

I think you should keep the list as is.

It shows the list of the gods of every culture as they are in (the Game) Morrowind. Bethesda might change or alter the list for Oblivion and other games.

Proweler 9-10-05 0055 GTM+1

I think you should keep the list as is.

It shows the list of the gods of every culture as they are in (the Game) Morrowind. Bethesda might change or alter the list for Oblivion and other games.

JUST OUT OF CURIOSITY, WHY IS THE PANTHEON FOR BLACK MARSH NOT INCLUDED HERE?

re: blackmarsh

Look up the varaties of faith in the empire. It's explained in the intro why there is no info on argonian gods. 130.161.31.71 09:16, 19 September 2007 (EDT) Proweler

chart

why is akatosh in only 3 pantheons here when he's really in all? and why does the chart have to be so complex? i'm going to change it to alphabetical order using the mode spelling as default and the the "first" spelling as backup.

St.Nerevar

Nevevar is not a god,he is a saint who led the Chimer against the Dwemer and Dagoth Ur.Nerevar wouldn't have even got a chance to become a god,the Tribunal killed him or he died of his wounds after counsultin his counselors(the Tribunal)and then the Tribunal themselves used the tools on the Heart of Lorkhan to become gods.Nerevar should not be up on the chart. — Unsigned comment by 68.144.228.97 (talk)

As it says on the article, most of the information is taken from Varieties of Faith in the Empire, where Nerevar is clearly listed. --Nephele^Talk 20:22, 1 May 2008 (EDT)

Nerevar shouldn't be in a listed as a God though, he is worshipped,but as a saint not god.It doesn't go together with the lore in the game

that book lists all major spirits not necessarily Gods, so I agree that Nerevar should be removed.--TheLastSwordSinger 01:47, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I think he's in the wrong place. I think it's only logical that the Nerevarine cult, to some extent, worships Nerevar as much as they worship the Nerevarine, since the whole idea is that the two have the same "soul" or something. So as long as the Nerevarine is on there (which I think is correct), then I think Nerevar should be on there, too, just under "Cults" instead of "Morrowind." Maybe even just sharing a space with the Nerevarine. Minor Edits 07:48, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

mnemolia and magna ge

they aren't actually worshipped, so they could be left out for simplicity

Table overhaul

The current table is rather problematic because it does not show all gods, though a table with a row for each god would lose the current information of which gods are equivalent. So is there any fancy wikimagic that can preserve this by putting a bigger box around rows with similair gods? Or some sort of alternating colors.

That way the gods can be placed on the rows and the cultures on the columns and an X when said god is worshipped by the given culture.

It also allows for a column to cover the worship by sects and cults to cover the Daedra. 62.251.15.186 17:33, 23 August 2008 (EDT) Proweler

Nevermind. I found the sort buttons on the table. 62.251.15.186 11:24, 24 August 2008 (EDT) Proweler

Temple of the Emperor Zero

Cuhlecain should be moved from where ever he is now (is my browser messing up the formatting, because that looks strange) to Cyrodiil, and probably renamed Cuhlecain, Emperor Zero for simplicity.24.97.239.147 17:19, 25 August 2008 (EDT)

While he might be restricted to Cyrodiil, he is not a mainstream figure. So he shouldn't be under Cyrodiil. 62.251.15.186 17:49, 29 August 2008 (EDT) Proweler

What do you mean by mainstream? His worship was ordained by Tiber Septim.24.97.239.147 15:36, 30 August 2008 (EDT)

It was called a cult in the PGE. So that puts in the same level as the Daedric Cults. I agree it's not really a neat division though.

Since the Imperial Cult is called a major religion of Morrowind and it was started by a divine emperor, I think it can be called mainstream. Culturally and historically, it is more Cyrodiilic than the elven and nordic Nine Divines. Temple-Zero 16:58, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

Alduin

Alduin is clearly a Satakal figure, but don't the Nords worship him as an Akatosh equivalent? He is the evil elven dragon, enemy of Shor. It may sound like contradiction, but he can occupy both spots.24.97.239.147 17:19, 25 August 2008 (EDT)

Faith in the Empire notes that there only is a superficial similarity but also that they are counter parts. The Aldudagga's flesh this out some more and he is called the time-dragon there.

Aside from that, the Imperial Phanteon was an almagam of Elven and Nordic gods, Alduin and Auri-El were combined into Akatosh so for the priests there was enough ground to merge them.

So the problem is with the Yokudans who both have Tall-Papa and Satakal. It is probebly best solved by adding Alduin to the Akatosh line though. 62.251.15.186 17:47, 29 August 2008 (EDT) Proweler

Could a mentor or someone help out by effecting this change and the one above (Cuhlecain), please? Temple-Zero 16:58, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

It doesn't look to me like a consensus has been reached in either case. Unfortunately, I'm not versed enough in Lore to argue any perspective. --GuildKnight^Talk2me 00:43, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

I'm also not sure what more you're saying needs to be done. Alduin has been added to the Akatosh line; Cuhlecain has been added under cults. I don't see any other required changes that are implied by either discussion. As GuildKnight says, there doesn't seem to be a consensus that Cuhlecain should be moved from cults to Cyrodiil. Details on the status belong on the individual gods' pages (Alduin, Cuhlecain), not on a broad overview table like this one. --Nephele^Talk 10:26, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

I think the table needs to be updated in accordance with Skyrim. According to theese two in game books: Alduin is Real and The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy. Both of them verifies that Alduin is NOT the same as Akatosh by any means, and events from the main storyline in Skyrim suggests the same. Also, most nords in game who refers to the dragon god, simply calls him Akatosh. If this is due to imperial influence or something else, I don't know. But I've not heard of anyone who refers to him as Alduin. Jyggorath 12:45, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Why were these deleted?

"Magna Ge, Children of Magnus" and "Mnemolia" were just removed with the edit summary "deleted magna ge and mnemolia for a variety or reasons, primarily that they can't be called 'gods of Tamriel' so much as the others can".

That summary admits that they are gods of Tamriel, and implies that it's pure personal opinion causing them to be removed. Explanation please. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 18:39, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

I put them there, for starters, a good long time ago. Besides the fact that they are mentioned primarily in one out of game source, their presence doesn't contribute much to completeness because they have no attached articles and the information necessary for articles is mostly nonexistant. They also aren't gods of Tamriel, persay, because they have almost no relation to Tamriel and aren't worshiped, as one group chose to leave and the other is locked out except during dragon breaks. If you want to keep the Magna-Ge in there, you could check to see if they are described in any in-game lore, and knock together a stub. I deleted them because I wasn't able to expand on it as I had hoped, and their presence wouldn't have elicited anything more than "lolwut?" because no detail is given.Temple-Zero 19:03, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

This got me looking around... The only mention I can find of "Magna Ge" from in-game lore is in the Mythic Dawn Commentaries. It says, "I give my soul to the Magna Ge, sayeth the joyous in Paradise, for they created Mehrunes the Razor in secret, in the very bowels of Lyg, the domain of the Upstart who vanishes. Though they came from diverse waters, each Get shared sole purpose: to artifice a prince of good, spinning his likeness in random swath, and imbuing him with Oblivion's most precious and scarce asset: hope." I also searched TIL; still, the only mention I found of Magna Ge was in the Mythic Dawn Commentaries.

I can find no in-game lore mention of "Mnemolia"; searching TIL only gives one obscure text, which contains this blurb, "The marriages of the Aether describe the birth of all magic. Like a pregnant [untranslatable], the Aurbis exploded with its surplus. Will formed and, with it, the Potential to Action. This is the advent of the first Digitals: mantellian, mnemolia, the aetherial realm of the etada. The Head of this order is Magnus, but he is not its Ward, for even he was subcreated by the birth of Akatosh." which I can't seem to make much sense of.

However, we have a few other mentions of them on the site;

• Lore:Aetherius: "The Magne Ge, or 'Star Oprhans,' who fled creation before Convention, reside here instead."
• Lore:Dawn Era: "Discord: Magnus and his followers, the Magna Ge, perceive the trap that is the Mundus and abandon their creation. They flee, ripping holes in the sky in their desperate departure to Aetherius. The sun and stars now allow magic The Twelve Worlds of Creation flourish."
• [[Lore:Dictionary_E#et'Ada]]: "The "Original Spirits." Divine beings that immediately resulted from the interplay of Anu and Padomay. Includes notably both the Aedra and Daedra, as well as beings that do not exist in Mundus such as the Magna Ge and Mnemolia. See Gods by Pantheon."
• Lore:Gods: "The et'Ada are the "original spirits", a race of divine beings resulting from the interplay of Anu and Padomay, including Aedra, Daedra, Magna Ge, and Mnemolia: Aedra have an Anuic basis; these are the gods who helped to create Mundus; Daedra have a Padomaic basis; these are the gods who refused to help create Mundus; Magna Ge are the children or followers of Magnus, and are credited with ripping holes in the sky in their desperate attempt to escape the trap that is Mundus."
• Lore:Gods by Pantheon (this is the one that was just removed): "The et'Ada, or "Original Spirits", which include: Aedra, those who helped to create Mundus; Daedra, those who refused to help create Mundus; Magna Ge, Children of Magnus; Mnemolia"

Should they all be removed? Are there references I can't find? I'll admit I'm not very practiced with searching TIL... --GuildKnight^Talk2me 21:14, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

Just did some snooping. Mnemolia are mentioned in two out of game sources (you missed one because you only searched for the plural form of the word). We know too little about them for them to be mentioned in uesp. I added them simply to avoid knowingly leaving something out, but they should be removed now.

Magna-Ge are sometimes known as Star Orphans, though I am not sure that this is correct. Simply put, they are the stars. That situation involving Magnus and the stars should be well-documented and not very obscure. The only disconnect is in the name, as the one the community uses is found in an obscure reference. Either someone successfully deciphered the Commentaries reference, or MK told us, which is likely since we also have a translation for the term. Magna-Ge means "I/Us/We of Magnus," generally taken to mean children of Magnus. (This detail should not be in the uesp, I think)Unlike Mnemoli, I'm pretty sure all those instances of it on the sight are not my edits, and they should stay, as they are backed up by enough in-game info to be useful to readers.Temple-Zero 21:39, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

Gods Article

Where exactly does this article fit in? Is it the summary of the Gods dictionary? A transclusion of the Gods by Province chart? I ask because it's marked as incomplete, and supposedly needs work.Temple-Zero 22:29, 8 February 2009 (EST)

(posted on Lore_talk:Gods for an early, now-deleted draft of the Gods article, before Gods by Pantheon was moved)

I moved the above comment here since it prompted me to reorganize the Gods overview content, and therefore provided a lead-in for my explanation of what I've done.

I agree with GuildKnight's reasons for creating an article at Lore:Gods. There should be an overview-type article, if someone searches on "Gods" they should be taken to that overview article, and it should be easy to create links to the overview.

However, what had been posted at Lore:Gods was mainly a synopsis of Lore:Gods_by_Pantheon, which was already leading to the inevitable out-of-sync problems that happen when two articles cover the same content. So I figured why not just move Gods_by_Pantheon to Gods, and kill two birds with one stone. In the process, I had to delete GuildKnight's original stub to make way for the move; there wasn't really any way to merge the two page histories. --Nephele^Talk 16:43, 2 March 2009 (EST)

Why isn't Y'ffre in the Bosmer section?

Everywhere I find information about him, it says he's the most important God of the Bosmeri pantheon. Why, then, is he only in the Breton, Khajiit, and Altmer columns? Is Jephre a different variation on the name "Y'ffre"? Why, then, doesn't the Jephre page say that? Also, if so, can someone please tell me where they found that out? I'm looking for information on the Bosmer pantheon in general, so I'd appreciate an actual source. --76.89.164.24 17:56, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

They're the same god - see this and this and compare to this. I've made the Jephre entry go to Y'ffre and added the alternative name to the latter too. Hopefully that should make things clearer. rpeh •T•C•E• 14:01, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Xen

Well, this is probably a pretty obscure deity, but according to The Monomyth there is an "aspect of the Aurbis" by the name of Xen ("They took names, like Magnus or Mara or Xen."). Should this god be in the table? Xen is mentioned in the article on Tsun, where it is claimed that he is an Altmeri god, and similar to the Bosmeri Z'en, the Yokudan Zeht, and to the Nordic Tsun, and related to the Cyrodiilic Zenithar. So it would seem that Xen should be in the bottom row of the table, in the Altmer column. But I don't know of any other in-game references, and as far as I understand, Xen is assumed to be an Altmeri god only because he is mentioned (in The Monomyth) in an Altmeri account. Any opinions? Quill 14:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Seems logical to me, so I've added it for consistency. If anyone disagrees, all of the other pages should probably be changed too. --GK^talk2me 01:51, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Before seeing this, I've just posted a question on the Gods X talk page regarding it, as despite the comment above I don't believe this page has actually been created? Threepwood87 (talk) 12:48, 9 September 2012 (EDT)

Lowercase Gods

Is there any particular reason why most instances of of the word 'god' is in lowercase? It looks messy in my opinion, and since it's a title it should be capitalised anyway. Does anyone have any objections to changing it? Legoless 21:30, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

"God/gods" should only be capitalized when it's the god's name, as in the Judeo-Christian God. In this article, it's not a title (you wouldn't say, for instance, "God Akatosh"). The capitalization is done properly here. --GK^talk2me 21:38, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but it's used in a title. As in, a book title. The word 'pancakes' isn't usually required to be capitalised, but a book called "How to Cook Pancakes" would do so. Thus, Shagrath the god of Spiders put into a section header would become 'Shagrath, God of Spiders'. Or am I confusing headers and titles? If so, then the other pages that do capitalise will have to be edited instead. Legoless 21:44, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Typically, when "god" is used, in lowercase, it is acceptable if used when refering to indefinite deities, such as "a god", but when refering to "God", specifically as if that was the deity's name, would require capitalization. If we were to say "Odin was the king of Norse gods", it would be acceptable, but "God" is the "proper noun", a name, and not always the proper word.

Usage 1-"He is a god."

Usage 2-"He is God."

Encyclopedias use this format, so I guess it could be applicable here. We might have other considerations in Lore, however, when it comes to perspectives (of Tamriel's citizens)- Neural Tempest 21:52, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Okay, when it's in a header, (like ==Types of Gods==) then it's capitalized, but otherwise it's not. Isn't that how it's done wiki-wide? --GK^talk2me 22:09, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Not on many of these articles it's not. See Lore:Gods T as one example. Legoless 22:15, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

(←) Yep, stuff like that should be changed... Feel free. --GK^talk2me 22:24, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh right...I forgot about proper titles. In that case, "gods" is handled like any other noun in a title. It becomes capitalized. For example, "darkness" becomes "Darkness". - Neural Tempest 22:32, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

They should all be fixed now. Legoless 22:36, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

New page title

Perhaps the name of this page and its derivatives should be something along the lines of "Divinites" as this would accommodate its including of beings that are not considered gods. Of course, it should make a clear distinction between gods and lesser spirits (i. e. different charts etc.).--TheLastSwordSinger 02:51, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, you're right; Azura and Akatosh should be listed above all those lesser beings.

My point being, we should make those distinctions according to whose point of view? The "right" one?Minor Edits 03:34, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I understand you might be specifically thinking of Nerevar, but I think it's safe to say that there were plenty of Ashlanders, particularly the Urshilaku (sp?), who "worshiped" the Nerevarine as a being somehow more important, or ... "higher," I guess, than themselves. And beyond that, it's hard to find a baseline between what is or isn't a "god" in this context. It's much easier to keep the bar low.Minor Edits 03:43, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Well sure, when it comes to lore there are many conflicting and hazy sources. So its up to the community to decide which ideas are the most valid and present them as quasi-fact. I was thinking if there were a page like I described, it would include such minor entites as the Mnemolia, the Magna Ge, Tribunal saints, Pelinal Whitestrake, Morihaus, Umaril's father, Alandro Sul ("Son" of Azura), Mannimarco, Sai, Ius, Emmeg Gro-Kayra ("Son" of Malacath), ancestor spirits, the Earthbones, the Ancestor Moths (the actual moths) etc.--TheLastSwordSinger 05:08, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't know about the majority of those. I think Temple Saints (besides Nerevar) would be noted elsewhere; I get the impression they're not so much worshiped as they are considered role models. Sort of the best of the worshipers, not the worshiped themselves. The lore seems to describe Pelinal Whitestrake as an incredibly skilled and intense warrior, not a religious figure (and little if anything was even known about him until KOTN). He doesn't quite reach the level of, say, Reman, a "cultural god-hero" who made it on the page. Mannimarco is a really close call. He's had many followers over the years, but are they worshippers, students, cronies, or a mix of all three?

I haven't really contributed to this page, so I'm not sure what the criteria is, but the key to being considered a "god" seems to be worshipers. If one is worshiped by any group of people as a higher form of life, then one is a "god." Of course, by that logic, maybe even the Champion of Cyrodiil should be on the page. But if Mannimarco, or any of those others you mentioned, had people who followed them devoutly in a religious, spiritual way, who viewed them as an innately supernatural beings, then I would think they count as a "god." Minor Edits 06:56, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Just to beat a dead horse, dividing the pantheon of gods even further than this would seem to me to be an intensely difficult thing to do.Minor Edits 07:00, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Judging from the rest of the talk page, some of those you mentioned were intentionally deleted already because, though they seem to qualify as "gods," there's very little info on them or evidence that anyone on Tamriel even cares about them. Minor Edits 07:08, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if some of them should count as gods. Champion of Cyrodiil houldn't because in ways he is not worshipped. Same with people like Pelinal. Not a god. JackTurbo95 07:27, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

"So its up to the community to decide which ideas are the most valid and present them as quasi-fact." No. Absolutely wrong. It's up to the community to report the facts and wait for clarification from Bethesda.

The name of this page might not be ideal, but I'd much rather keep it here than move it to an obscure non-word like "Divinities". rpeh •T•C•E• 10:14, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Sir, please relax. Yes, divinites is a word, it's the plural of "divinity". You can look it up if you like.

I don't think you understand what I mean. Bethesda has said that many aspects of ES lore are ambiguous and disputable (sorry I can't exactly cite this for you, but I read it in a GameInformer article [I'm not using the exact wording, of course]) Different books, scholars, cultures etc. offer different opinions and points of view on things. Arkay is a perfect example, some sources portray him as a full Aedra, others as once mortal, and now the "Aedra and Daedra" chart excludes him from the "Aedra" row. At least from what I can tell, this is because more of these sources than not portray him as once mortal. So the community decided to change it thusly. Now maybe I'm missing something. Maybe I didn't read some policy on this or maybe Bethesda personally confirms things like these for sites like these, I don't know. But if I am ignorant of something crucial like that, then perhaps you could inform me of them, instead of berating someone who is obviously new to the site.--TheLastSwordSinger 18:14, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I think 'gods' is fine. The title has nothing to do with how "powerful" the spirit is - it just signifies an entity of worship. Divinities implies that they are all divine. Molag Bal is not what I would call divine. If there's no explicit reason for moving it, it should be left alone. Instead, we should trim down the few that aren't worshipped. Legoless 18:25, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Wait, I understand now. Theres no reason why all those various opinions can't be mentioned. That chart is just a special case. Is there even such a thing as truth?

Now I believe the subject of this page should be expanded from beings that are the subject of worship to all beings that possess any amount of divine power, thus making it more encompassing or at least create a page for entities that are not considered gods i. e. not subjects of worship (forgive the redundancy, as I have stated this elsewhere) P.S. If this page does remain the same, than it should exclude gods like Herma-Mora in the Nord section and Lorkhan from the Altmer section or change the definition to all subjects of worship that are recognized by the various cultures of Tamriel, as these deities are most certainly not worshiped by the races that they are listed under. Remember; Varieties of Faith in the Empire is not an infallible source.--TheLastSwordSinger 20:14, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

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