User talk:Nephele/Archive-2007-03

< User talk:Nephele

Can you check these pages?Edit

Hi Nephele I'm sure you have enough to do, however I was hoping you could check the format of Useful Enchantments? I'm pretty much doing of most of it myself and I want to be sure it meets the standards. Thanks for your help with the Useful Spells page as well, I think it's looking much better now.Grandmaster z0b 02:53, 1 March 2007 (EST)

Overall, the page looks really good. But I have a bad habit of finding minor tweaks if I'm asked to look over something ;) So I altered a few details, in particular removing a few duplicate links (see Avoid Cluttering Links). I also made some more substantial changes to the bows section, as explained at Bow Enchantments, since wasted weakness effects are one of my pet peeves.
Thanks for all your work on both these pages (especially since I basically roped you into doing it)! --Nephele 22:23, 1 March 2007 (EST)

Let's fightEdit

Uh, how exactly does a single sentence "Recover this belt in Pelagiad." not call for speedy del? :-) --FMan | Talk (contribs) 13:32, 3 March 2007 (EST)

Because it doesn't meet any of the criteria listed under UESPWiki:Deletion Policy#Criteria for Speedy Deletion. Although it may be short on content, it's not nonsense, vandalism, or a test page. The criteria for speedy deletion are pretty narrow and specific because speedy deletion is only supposed to be used when there is no possibility of making a mistake. Anything else is supposed to go through proposed deletion, which is still for uncontroversial deletions, but ones where there's a small chance someone else might think of a reason why it shouldn't be deleted.
Also, in this particular case, it's a standard quest description page, which is used if anyone creates a standard link to the quest (for example, if the links on Morrowind:Morag Tong Quests are updated to the standard format being used on pages like Morrowind:Fighters Guild Quests), so it's not clear to me that it should be deleted. But I figured I should let people who are more Morrowind-savvy than me make that call.
Good to know that you're back and haven't lost any of your skills at rocking the boat ;) --Nephele 13:59, 3 March 2007 (EST)
Hehe. All right. What about Aurane Frernis then? There's an orphan page (probably you already guessed I was going thru them) Morrowind:Aurane_Frernis'_Recipies and I had a few ideas what to do, but wasn't sure so I want to ask. If you look at the orphaned pages, there are a few book-type thingies on top of the list. Should they be added to the Tamriel:Books directory? There's no page on this NPC, but one could be added in concorde with the related quest and linked to this document. Feedback? BTW, did you get around to checking out the plugin yet? --FMan | Talk (contribs) 14:34, 3 March 2007 (EST)
My personal preference is that books/documents that aren't really of interest outside of one specific quest should be incorporated into the quest's page. For example, the text of a Suicide Note that appears after Oblivion:Permanent Retirement was just added to that quest page. It can be a somewhat fuzzy line, but that's true of most things in the Tamriel namespace ;) The three books that I see in the orphaned list all look like their contents could be merged in somewhere more relevant and the books themselves deleted, in my opinion. And, no, sorry, haven't checked out the plugin yet... waiting until I have some time to actually play a game :) --Nephele 17:20, 3 March 2007 (EST)
Thanks. I'll look into the others one of these days and try to do something about them. You can always revert. ;-) --FMan | Talk (contribs) 19:30, 4 March 2007 (EST)

NPC RacesEdit

That is fine, Nephele. Michael 16:43, 10 March 2007 (EST)

Spam linkEdit

You may wish to delete this (Oblivion Talk:Oblivion/). It appears to be a spam link. Michael 23:06, 10 March 2007 (EST)

Oh, it appears another admin. took care of this already. Michael 23:20, 10 March 2007 (EST)

Mid-page redirects...Edit

...don't work, remember? Not really sure we need those, anyhow. But whatever. --TheRealLurlock Talk 00:37, 11 March 2007 (EST)

They don't work now, but the next time we upgrade the wiki, they will work. I figure we might as well start creating redirects with that in mind now, instead of going back and changing them later.
FYI, I'm leaning towards creating a lot of redirects once we get that upgrade, since problems finding pages and using the search function have been a pretty common complaint (see, for example, this discussion). Creating redirects is cheap and painless, and if they help a few readers find what they're looking for then I figure they've served their purpose. And once it's possible for Oblivion:Tools and Oblivion:Miscellaneous Items#Tools to be identical links, then why not also save all the editors some typing occasionally? That's my thinking, at least. --Nephele 00:44, 11 March 2007 (EST)
Ah. I remember we had this problem before, and you looked into it, and the basic response was "don't expect this feature to happen any time soon". If you've heard differently since then, that's cool, I just remember it looked like it was unlikely we'd see that feature included in the software. --TheRealLurlock Talk 01:03, 11 March 2007 (EST)
Yep, that was my impression at the time, too. But when I went back to find a reference to add to that discussion I mentioned previously, I was somewhat shocked to find that the section I was looking for no longer existed. Shortly after our last wiki upgrade (of course!) they added that feature apparently (I think I added a link or two somewhere in that earlier discussion). --Nephele 01:09, 11 March 2007 (EST)

I think I got it!Edit

Would you mind checking out Zahrasha? I just want to make sure there isn't anything I left out, or anything that's redundant, before I press forward. --GuildKnight 20:14, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

Yep, looks like you got the NPC template added! I just noticed that Lurlock deleted a few unnecessary tags... the NPC template makes any "Oblivion NPC Trail" or "Category" tags redundant, so those should be deleted. And there's been some discussion about how widely to use the NeedsImage tag... it's probably best to only use it on important NPCs. One last thing is that it might make more sense for someone like to Zahrasha to just use |loc=Wellspring Cave and delete the |city= and |house= lines, since she doesn't really live in a city or in a house. None of these are big things; I'm just bringing them up since you asked for feedback. --Nephele 20:36, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

Just Wondering...Edit

It's been a week since Guildknight, Bast and I got nominated for patroller, so can we resolve, give Daveh the results, and start patrolling? Sorry to sound anxious; I'm rather excited. Somercy 12:37, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

OK, I've done what I can, including leaving a request for Daveh. Hopefully he should get a chance to make it official in the next couple days. If you hit refresh on Recent Changes and see red exclamation points everywhere, you'll know it's happened ;) --Nephele 22:40, 12 March 2007 (EDT)
Is Daveh even alive? His last edit was March 5, actually. Sorry to gripe, if it seems that way. Somercy 12:29, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
Unfortunately he does frequently go on travel and seems to have little to no web access during those times. Hopefully he'll resurface again soon... --Nephele 12:52, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
Mkay. I'ma be travelling over spring break, but that may make me more accessable, actually. And in April, I'm going to practically disappear for two weeks. Somercy 12:54, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

Error in the Sigil Stone pageEdit

Hi Nephele, Did you notice, there is a series of errors on the Sigil Stone page... The 'Damage Magika' and the 'Demoralize' stones have duplicated Item Numbers, ie. 00042005 to 00042009 for both stones. Hopefully this is just a typo from whoever created this (otherwise excellent) chart. Regards, Jimmy James

No, I hadn't noticed that before ;) But I think I've now corrected the wrong form IDs. Thanks for pointing out the mistake! --Nephele 01:24, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

Link to UESPWiki:Administrator NoticeboardEdit

I noticed you removed this link from the top-bar on the Recent Changes page in order to "make room" for the Warnings link. I'm not sure I agree with this. First of all, how small is your monitor that there isn't room for both? But secondly, I think this just serves to make it harder for editors to contact the admins when there's an issue other than something you'd need a warning for. (And it also made it harder for me to find the page where I discussed the recent Turkish "hackers", since we just had another one.) I suspect the result is that editors will choose to contact individual admins on their talk-pages, which is less efficient. (If somebody reports an issue directly to you while you're asleep, I might not necessarily see it, or vice versa, but the noticeboard is more likely to be viewed by any admins.) I'd favor either putting the link back in there, or maybe having it somewhere else, like the side-bar. However, I don't see that we're so cramped for space up there that it can't just go back where it was. If anything, I'd remove the Vandalism link, since it's really more just a definition of what Vandalism is, and is not likely to be something you'd need to check repeatedly. (Would be different if that was where you go to report vandals, but that's generally done on the Administrator Noticeboard, which is why I think it's more important to have that page linked up there.) --TheRealLurlock Talk 10:14, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

OK, I put the Admin Noticeboard back in (abbreviated a bit) and took out Vandalism. It's not that my monitor is small -- in fact at the moment I'm larger than usual -- but I try to keep in mind that some editors are probably using smaller monitors, may prefer to use larger font sizes, and/or may not always have their browser up in a full-screen window. And with six links across the top of the page, overlap can easily become a problem. It's also perhaps possible to go to two lines of text, but at some point the position of the bread crumbs needs to be tweaked, and it's probably best to wait until that is finalized before deciding whether it's possible to go to more than one line. --Nephele 02:09, 16 March 2007 (EDT)

Requests for Speedy DeletionEdit

This is just a friendly reminder that I have some personal pages under speedy deletion process, all under the "user request" criterion. Although there is no rush to have these pages deleted, they have been under this process for around two days.

I'm assuming that no one is currently aware that these pages are in the speedy deletion category. Please let me know if these pages are purposely being delayed or if you have any concerns about the pages I placed under this process.

Thanks! --Aristeo | Talk 22:30, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

I didn't realize there was a rush on this. I was planning to get to it when I had a few spare minutes, but there haven't been too many of them lately... and even right now I'm supposed to be doing a couple other things. --Nephele 00:20, 18 March 2007 (EDT)
Oops, I think you overread some of the key points of my message. There is no rush, I just wanted to remind you that I added some pages to the category. I also wanted to verify that these pages aren't being delayed on purpose. --Aristeo | Talk 00:24, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

Warnings issue.Edit

Wasn't sure you if were aware of this, but there seems to be a bit of a problem with the warnings templates you've set up. Specifically, the Block notice, which you used on User_talk:, doesn't seem to properly display your signature. I saw the "noinclude" tags in the middle of the two pairs of ~'s, not sure if that's behaving quite the way it's supposed to. I don't know how you'd fix it - seems like it's the same problem I had when trying to get the timestamp to appear on Chaos Monkey's signature, but you might want to look into it. --TheRealLurlock Talk 23:24, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

I just messed up that one template; the warning template that I inserted earlier onto the same user talk page did the signature properly. I've fixed the blocked template now, and I checked all the others, they're all done correctly. --Nephele 00:19, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

Mercantile SkillEdit

Not sure what you mean when you say that it's 0.4 experience points for each item sold, but the number of points to advance a level varies. Can you please explain. As a major skill, it takes exactly 2 * the number of Mercantile points you have currently...wouldn't that mean it's 0.5 experience points per sale if it's a major skill (which is what I was trying to add)? Or is there some formula that I'm unaware of that makes the 0.4 make sense?

I absolutely detest writing in Wiki's, so please feel free to send an e-mail to me directly at (and yes, I'm aware I'm posting that on a public site; I'm not worried about that address).

The details of how experience points work is all explained at Increasing Skills. So actions, such as selling an item, give your character a fixed number of experience of points. But how many experience points your character needs to go from, for example Mercantile=50 to Mercantile=51, depends upon whether the skill is a major or minor skill and whether or not it's a specialization. I haven't seen the formula that it takes 2*mercantile_skill sales to increase your skill before, but from the charts on Increasing Skills that seems to be somewhat of a coincidence and not exactly accurate. --Nephele 21:33, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
You're right. It so happens that at the various levels I had tried this at, the number of sales worked out within 1 point or less of 2 * skill level (e.g., the one I recently used to "confirm" my theory: level 27, major, non-spec needs roughly 54 sales), so that's what it appeared to me to be. I'll defer to those who've obviously put a lot more effort into this than I have. Thanks for pointing out the chart; it'll be useful to me in the future (as I give up on selling 280 arrows one at a time, and just bulk sell the right number, then use the console to raise my stat appropriately...somebody needs to make a mod to overcome the need to do that <g>).


I'm sure you're aware who ShakenMike is. He posted a question on my talk page. I think you'd find it interesting to check the history of his talk page. I'm not sure what acceptable behavior is, so I thought it would be better for you to take a look at what happened, but basically, he asked (on his talk page) what online guide would be best for Morrowind, and his comment was deleted by Vartan with the edit summary: "An obvious attack on UESP from an ex-vandal." --GuildKnight | Talk (contribs) 19:01, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

I did it because he used this site for so long and after his vandalism, I felt like he probably got mad at this site and made it look like it's a useless place. He is very well aware of all the information about Morrowind, hell, he even deleted some full pages about characters in Morrowind some time ago. I wouldn't have deleted it if I didn't sense some resentment coming out of it. I can't seem to recall but his answer to some guy that told him to use this site was "Okay then, I'll only use this site for Morrowind then". Did I do something wrong? I'm rather new at this whole wiki thing. Vartan 19:14, 20 March 2007 (EDT)
I am not an administrator, so you'd have to ask Nephele or another administrator if you did anything "wrong," but it seems to me like ShakenMike has trouble with English, and I believe one of the wiki's principles is "always assume best intentions." I was not aware that he actually deleted entire pages, I had only been aware that he deleted his questions from some talk pages. Either way, it seems to me like he should be able to post whatever he wants on his talk page, as long as it's not abusive. But, like I said, I'm not an administrator, and I was not aware of the extent of his troublemaking. --GuildKnight | Talk (contribs) 19:21, 20 March 2007 (EDT)
I don't know if it's the English language that defaults him or something else. As you can see here [1]he knows how to sign his name. I've seen him sign his name everywhere in fact, and moreover he keeps on bashing this site for unknown reasons. I don't know that user that much and I'm in a far worse position than you are GuildKnight as I joined a week ago or so. One thing is for certain: we're dealing with someone quite unique and hard to communicate with. I do assume his best intentions and I won't make fun of his grammar as I'm not someone from an English speaking country myself. I recall reading someone stating he is "immune to bans" so I guess it's not the first time? Vartan 19:27, 20 March 2007 (EDT)
It's usually not good to delete comments on talk pages, ShakenMike himself has been in trouble for the exact same thing (how ironic). -- Chaos Monkey Talk 19:40, 20 March 2007 (EDT)
Yes and he did it once again asking the exact same question both GuildKnight and I answered to. It's rather annoying, is he playing deaf on purpose? As for editing talk pages, this is the only reason I feel a tiny bit guilty of editing his page back then but then again, reading some of his old posts, contributions, I felt like he knew very well the answer to his question. A question that didn't seem "innocent" to me from someone who bashed this site a couple of times before. --Vartan 19:47, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Ok I give up, that guy is driving me insane [[2]] --Vartan 19:56, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

I think I've covered the relevant issues here on Vartan's talk page. --Ratwar 20:15, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Quick Leveling...Edit

Great, now neither of us can delete it? (Following the rule that you aren't supposed to delete something you prod'd yourself.) Anyhow, at least we're in agreement it should be deleted. Maybe we should get Ratwar to do it just to keep up appearances... --TheRealLurlock Talk 11:37, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Oops... didn't think about that ;) It just made me laugh when I went to hit save, and got an edit conflict from someone posting almost the exact same message, so I couldn't resist posting my message anyway. But the reason behind the deletion rule is to make sure that at least two people have looked over the page and agree that it should be deleted. By that interpretation, either of us could delete it because it's obvious another editor has agreed with the deletion. Or we could bug Ratwar: I knew there was a reason why we needed three active admins! --Nephele 11:44, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Image TroubleEdit

Hey again..I noticed twice already that the images I uploaded; instead of appearing, were just red links. It happened for Varnado and Maro Rufus. Varnado finally appeared but Maro Rugus is still red. Is there any reason for this? --Vartan 16:41, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

For some reason when you're entering the image name on the NPC page an invisible character is getting added to the end of the image name. I'm not sure what the original character is, but you can see it once the name is URL-encoded. So if you click on that red image, in the URL bar at the top of your browser you'll see the name of the image listed as "Npc-ob-rufus-maro.jpg%E2%80%8E" instead of just "Image:Npc-ob-rufus-maro.jpg". The "%E2%80%8E" is the way that the invisible character is getting URL-encoded so it can be used as part of a webpage name. Also, if you backspace through the line in the editor window, you have to hit backspace twice for the g in "jpg" to disappear; the first backspace must be deleting the invisible character. I'm not sure where the invisible character is coming from to start with, but if you backspace from the end of the line until you've deleted the g, retype the g, then hit the "show preview" button, you should see the image appear. Or at least it's worked for me a couple times now ;) --Nephele 16:48, 21 March 2007 (EDT)
Thanks, I'll try that...with all these copy/paste I probably inserted spaces and such..let me fix it :p --Vartan 16:52, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Oblivion Free TimeEdit

Hey, I'm in college; free time is all I have. Then again, you're still way ahead of me in total play time :) Nufy8 18:15, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Ingredient MapsEdit

Those are pretty cool. How did you make those? (I'm thinking how I would do it, and it would take a little work!) --Wrye 02:52, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

I'm glad you like them :D And it's definitely not something that I just threw together overnight....
  • First, I processed the Oblivion.esm file with a parser that I've been gradually assembling (one of those projects that started off small, and then I started adding more and more bits to it) to add up how many plants of every type are in each cell in Tamriel and the city "worlds".
  • Second, ran those numbers through a scientific graphics program to create the color-coded part of the map. At that stage, I just had the colors on a white background.
  • Third, copied and pasted the color-coded stuff on top of the map of Tamriel. Before going into production mode with it, I spent a fair bit of time tweaking the copy-and-paste part, since it's the one step that's not automated. All the color maps were scaled to be the exact same size as the Tamriel map, and I actually have some hidden crosshairs in the images so I could be sure I was aligning the two maps properly.
Obviously I'm not done with step three yet, but it should only take me a couple more hours to get through the rest of the maps... and then I just have to finish putting together all the pages describing the plants. I'm not too good at keeping my projects small and simple ;) --Nephele 03:24, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
Your own parser? Been hiding that under your belt, huh? Hadn't seen you active on the file format pages. <foghorn leghorn>You know, of course, this means WAR!!</foghorn leghorn> Bash also has a pretty general purpose parser (haven't thrown in cell handling yet, though -- RSN) -- for more info, see Wrye Bash Programming. Anyway, welcome to the club and again, nice work! --Wrye 14:40, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
I've made a couple little edits on the file format pages [3], [4], but mostly I've just been taking advantage of all the info you and Daveh have been posting ;) Don't worry, I have no plans to compete against Bash. In fact, I've been too absentminded to even realize before now that I probably could have taken advantage of existing tools like Bash. Perhaps because it wasn't really planned... I just started by seeing if I could look up one thing, then another, and another, etc. I may have gotten around to digesting cell and wrld records already, but other than I'm sure that what I've put together is primitive compared to Bash... read-only, non-GUI, non-interactive, non-user-friendly, etc. Maybe someday I'll learn python and migrate to your universe, but right now juggling the five programming languages that I regularly use is keeping me much too confused to want to add a sixth to the list ;) --Nephele 21:21, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
Actually, on second thought, I might start experimenting with Mash and Mish pretty soon, since I wanted to get at some Morrowind NPC info, and I definitely did not want to reinvent the wheel yet again for that. Now, if I could just clear my desk of some of the hundred other things I've been fiddling with and make room for another new project.... --Nephele 21:59, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
Ahh... Well... Mash is not so well developed as Bash in terms of file understanding. Mash understands some types quite well (cells, leveled lists, dials, infos) but other things it only partially understand (npcc's), and there's plenty it doesn't understand at all (npcs). Bash was even more limited until this January where I engineered something like EE's template system that made it almost trivial to add complete read/write/mangle support for new types -- at which point I started throwing in new types just for the fun of it. Still, it may be easier to add another type to mash then to start from scratch. It should be possible to backport Bash's sytem to Mash, but that would be a fair amount of work to do the setup. --Wrye 22:39, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

Knights of the NineEdit

I am having trouble trying to get my mod to work. Do you need to finish the main quest first to make the mod work?

--Crusader 29 04:31, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

Nope, you definitely don't need to finish the main quest. I still haven't finished the main quest, but I have finished Knights of the Nine. Unlike every other mod, KotN does not immediately add a quest to your journal when you load up the mod. You have to go talk to people to be given the quest, more like the built-in quests. You should try traveling to Anvil's chapel... as soon as the mod is installed, the interior of the chapel is desecrated, so that's a pretty clear sign that the mod is working. There can be issues with the mod if you have multiple mods installed (especially unofficial mods); check to make sure that KotN is being loaded after all other mods (see Tes4Mod:Mod_Management#Load_Ordering). Hopefully some of that helps! --Nephele 13:38, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
You haven't finished the main quest? -- Chaos Monkey Talk 14:58, 25 March 2007 (EDT)
Nope :) I'm almost there with Nenya: she's exploring Paradise (and has been for about three months now). OK, I did cheat once about a month ago and turned down the difficulty just to blast through and see the end of the main quest, but I didn't save afterwards. But basically Nenya has been on hold while I've been focussing on a new character, Phoebe Aurielle, and trying to work through the Thieves Guild and DB quests. --Nephele 15:50, 25 March 2007 (EDT)

Prod'd pages...Edit

Just noticing you removed the "Prod" from those two template pages. Both of those pages transclude the /Description template, and neither of them is used anywhere on the site. Not sure why they don't qualify for deletion, since they're unused templates. The only reason I didn't delete /Description was because of those pages. I can't quite tell what's supposed to be going on with those, but I do know that nobody's using them, so there's no need to keep them that I can see.

Incidentally, if you have some time, you might want to go through the Proposed Deletion list - I got rid of a bunch of stuff, but most of what's left there is things I proposed for deletion, so somebody else will need to take care of them. --TheRealLurlock Talk 14:34, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

I removed the prod tags because the reason you gave was "Broken redirect for template moved to Shadowkey namespace". But those templates are not broken and they are completely unrelated to Shadowkey; the only reason that Shadowkey appears on the page is because they display the contents of Template:/Description when viewed in the Template namespace. But used anywhere else on the site, in the way they are meant to be used, they use the page's local /Description page. Template:/Description can safely be deleted without having any impact on the functionality of those templates.
On the other hand, I didn't check and see that they're not being used any more. I know until maybe a month ago the Quest Description template was still being used, but apparently our diligent editors have gone through and changed all the quest pages over so that Quest Description has been properly replaced by the Quest Summary. If you think they need to be deleted because they're not being used, then that's a different situation than what I saw when I first looked at the pages. --Nephele 20:42, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
Since they both transcluded the Shadowkey page, I assumed that they were themselves related to Shadowkey, especially since they aren't used anywhere else. I figured since /Description was up for deletion, then the others should go with it, as the three pages seem connected to eachother and nothing else. Anyhow, I'll put the Prod's back up with proper descriptions. --TheRealLurlock Talk 21:55, 23 March 2007 (EDT)


Just reading through the Harrada page, and I'm wondering if the paragraph on Bloodgrass is there for a reason. Th232 05:06, 24 March 2007 (EDT)

Oops, I copied and pasted a couple of the intro sentences from the Bloodgrass page, and forgot to replace Bloodgrass with Harrada in that case. Thanks for pointing out that goof before it had the chance to confuse too many people! --Nephele 13:29, 24 March 2007 (EDT)


To the 10000+ club. It was getting lonely up here... --TheRealLurlock Talk 23:30, 29 March 2007 (EDT)

Wow, you really caught it right when I hit 10000! Thanks! --Nephele 00:42, 30 March 2007 (EDT)
Yeah, saw it coming about 10 posts in advance, so I waited. You stayed at 9999 for a rather long time, was wondering if I'd have to wait until tomorrow... --TheRealLurlock Talk 00:50, 30 March 2007 (EDT)
Hopefully you hadn't been waiting all week, too, since I'm guessing it probably was stuck somewhere pretty close to 10000 while I took a few days off. --Nephele 00:54, 30 March 2007 (EDT)
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