User talk:Legoless/Arc 2012b

This is an archive of previous comments on my talk page. Please do not post a message here - use this link to go to the active page instead.

How did I miss it?Edit

Sorry I didn't realize it was your birthday, I guess I was busy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Anyway, happy birthday to the very first person who talked to me on this wiki...even if it is a month too late:) RIM 22:29, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks RIM! —Legoless 23:55, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Artifact Images on Daedric Prince PagesEdit

Oh, if I did something wrong then I apologize. I've seen them on some Prince's pages and on some not, so I simply decided to add the missing ones where they supposedly belong. --Arkhon 01:05, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

It's no problem. I think there was some further discussion on the matter, but I can't seem to find it. —Legoless 01:20, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Blocking PolicyEdit

My block did fall within the blocking policy. According to the blocking policy, and indefinite block can be performed if: "An editor that personally attacks any member of the community will immediately be permanently blocked. This includes threats and/or clearly abusive language that are directed towards any other editor. Generic insults of the web site and non-targeted profanities are also not acceptable behavior, but generally can be dealt with using the standard three-step process. Permanent banning is reserved for extreme and unambiguous cases." As such, my block was well within policy. Please reverse your alteration. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 16:53, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

All I'm going to say is that I have not reverted anything or posted any Advice to warrant the attack. The Silencer speaks^Talk 16:56, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

We need to assume good faith with StormShades‎, who has never caused trouble before now. This looks more like an account hijack than anything. Aside from that, the personal attacks rule is rarely enforced in such a manner; it's a bluff, we don't permanently block every IP address that insults an editor for reverting their edits; nor was StormShades' offence that serious ("you suck" is hardly justifiable as a personal attack, unless The Silencer wishes it to be treated as such). We can see if StormShades explains himself on his talk page, or we can wait the week and see what happens (i.e. the "three-step process"). An indefinite block is far too harsh. —Legoless 17:04, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Under that logic, almost nothing can be considered a personal attack. And since Silencer just described it as an attack above, I think that is exactly what it is. Vandalizing a page on the sidebar and personally attacking other users are serious offenses, regardless of their previous behavior. If this account has been hijacked as you suggest, I don't think it should be allowed to edit until the StormShades confirms this as being the case. This account should definitely remain blocked until we have some kind of comment from this user explaining this. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 17:20, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Legoless and I were talking on IRC at the time of the edits. I don't take offence when insulted like this because I know it is untrue, however a personal attack is still an attack if I don't take offence. I would like to see how Stormshades responds because, as above, I cannot see where I have offended him. The Silencer speaks^Talk 17:30, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Judging by some of the edit summaries on his most recent edits, I don't think it's too far-fetched to say what he did was a clear violation of multiple UESP policies. If his account was hijacked, that surely just means he needs to be more careful with his own personal security procedures; after all, if he's lying, how would we know the difference? It's only fair that we give him a chance to explain himself, but it's probably best to keep him blocked until we can sort this out. Even after it's sorted out, I think a short suspension period might be in order, but we'll see how it plays out. ThuumofReason 17:35, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

(←) One final note, I wish to point out that you should of contacted me before altering the block according to our guidelines for Administrative Conflicts. Regardless of how you felt about my actions, this was not the way to go about resolving this. If you're unwilling to undo your action, let's move this to the admin board for neutral arbitration from an unrelated administrator. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 17:37, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I would have expected more lenience to have been given to an offence so out-of-character for a user such as StormShades‎, but if you feel its severity outweighs any assumptions of good faith, I will re-extend the block. I'm sorry if you felt this was a reversal of your administrative action; that wasn't my intention. Instead of flinging policies around, I'll concede on my point - but I will say that I believe you're incorrect, in that neutral administrators cannot act as arbitrators in an administrative conflict. Input from other admins would be appreciated, so you may wish to bring this up on the AN regardless. —Legoless 17:55, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

It is not a matter of it being out of character, if anything, that makes me more willing to see this block stay. If this account is compromised as you believe, I do not think it should be unblocked until this is sorted out. As far as I am concerned, there are two possibilities. One, this account is compromised and should remain blocked until this is sorted out. Two, this user personally attacked another user with no provocation to justify it in the slightest while vandalizing a page on the sidebar. As this action is drastically out of character for this user as you have pointed out, I feel it needs some kind of explanation for what just happened before he can be allowed to edit again. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 18:04, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Sound reasoning; the block has been extended. —Legoless 18:11, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

ScreenshotsEdit

Hey Legoless.I took some screenshots of Kill Me.I'm still trying to decide which one to use,I used the tm command like you said,so the only problem is how much of Kill Me is wanted to be shown in the image.Like would a picture not showing his feet be okay?--Skyrimplayer 16:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

This page may be of some help. For NPC images, full body shots are preferred, although it isn't essential as long as the image represents the NPC well. If you want to crop the image, make sure it's perfectly square and of a reasonable resolution. If you can't decide which image to use, you're welcome to upload them all and look for opinions. —Legoless 16:09, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks!One more thing though.He is in an extremely bright area,I mean wow!It is so bright I could barely see.I'm using the tlb command to make it darker.Plus there are a lot of tables and static objects around him,I don't know if these should be disabled or not.The tables seem to contain items that are unique(aka.Staff of the Everscamp)or unique in appearence,but not in name(aka.the Leather Cuiriass you can find on the Blackwater Brigands).Another interesting feature is of a frozen warrior and a Frost Antronach just standing there not moving,this is a static object,and there are some paintings including one involved in Canvas the Castle.It's a very odd area.You should check it out.--Skyrimplayer 16:18, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't bother disabling anything. It's a test area, so it's bound to be a little strange looking. —Legoless 16:33, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok!Thanks!--Skyrimplayer 17:07, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

QuestionEdit

Hey Legoless!I had an old account which I never used called Luther Lex.I was wondering what to do with it.I remeber the password.Could it be turned into a public sandbox?Or is that against the rules?--Skyrimplayer 16:27, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Legoless, for answering your question. Skyrimplayer, you can redirect it to your userspace, or you can have it marked for deletion. Either way, the problem you have should be fixed.--Br3admax 16:45, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh no.I don't have a problem with it.In fact I barely remembered it.I was wondering if it could be turned into a place where people could make test edits.--Skyrimplayer 16:49, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

We already have a public sandbox. If you have any edits on the old account, it would be a good idea to turn it into a redirect. —Legoless 16:51, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Welcome to the 10K Club!Edit

Just noticed you passed this mark fairly recently, only the 8th user to do so (not counting the bots, which all belong to other 10K'ers, of course). Congrats! --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 15:11, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Haha, thanks! Hopefully I can keep up the pace. —Legoless 21:30, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Some more congrats while I modify the link. Golden Silence^{Break the Silence} 22:41, 14 September 2012 (GMT)

Dunmer LoreEdit

Thanks for doing that, I just realized that I should of done that and was about to make the change myself. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 17:33, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

No problem, I wasn't even sure it would work. Legoless 18:00, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that's doing what you want it to (see Skyrim:Dunmer). What's it supposed to display in which namespaces? – Robin Hood↝talk 20:10, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

For reference, RH, the discussion that prompted the change is here, though I'm not sure how to fix the issue itself. ABCface^◥ 21:04, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I think maybe I just fixed it. Someone might want to check though: Online:Dunmer, Lore:Dunmer, and Skyrim:Dunmer, just to be sure... ABCface^◥ 21:09, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

(←) It is definitely not doing what it is supposed to be doing now. It's supposed to say "are" instead of "before its destruction" in Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion as Morrowind had yet to be destroyed. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 12:23, 3 September 2012 (EDT)

Okay, so in Lore, Skyrim and Online we want "before its destruction" and in Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion it should just say "are"? – Robin Hood↝talk 12:29, 3 September 2012 (EDT)

Wait, I forgot that it should also say "are" in Online instead of "before its destruction". That's the entire reason I made that change, in the first place. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 12:32, 3 September 2012 (EDT)

Okay, I've made the changes. Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Online will say "are"; anything else (Skyrim, Lore, and any future gamespaces) will say "before its destruction". I'm off for lunch, so feel free to make changes as needed. – Robin Hood↝talk 12:34, 3 September 2012 (EDT)

It seems to be working as intended now, thanks. In hindsight, it would of been easier to just edit that to make the comment more generic. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 12:35, 3 September 2012 (EDT)

Dwarven ArrowEdit

Dwarven Sphere Centurion Arrow isn't lootable though is it?--FubarFrank (talk) 14:44, 22 September 2012 (GMT)

No, although NPCs can use them. —Legoless (talk) 14:46, 22 September 2012 (GMT)

I was pretty sure it wasn't but seeming as how we were all still finding tricks in Oblivion years later I haven't written it off just yet.--FubarFrank (talk) 14:50, 22 September 2012 (GMT)

Lexicon imageEdit

Hey Lego. I'm not sure what this means. I brightened the image to make it consistent with the other images; no color correction, no nothing. I have played around with that cube for hours (the png) and it is just too dark for us (example) - so we need to manipulate it a bit to avoid just having an image of a black box. --Krusty (talk) 19:17, 24 September 2012 (GMT)

Hi Krusty, sorry for the odd cleanup tag. The image brightening resulted in loss of detail on the glowing red part of the cube, although Kimi has managed to fix it. Hopefully it's still bright enough? —Legoless (talk) 20:17, 24 September 2012 (GMT)

Ah, okay - I was confused about the 'warped'-thing. I saw Kimi's change and it is much better now. :) --Krusty (talk) 20:50, 24 September 2012 (GMT)

Daedric Prince ArtifactsEdit

Howdy, Legoless! I had some questions to throw at you about the format of the lore section. What direction are you taking Lore:Artifacts? Will it remain largely in its current format, will you be turning it into a "super-appendix" like Lore:Alchemy, or would you like for it to become a full-fledged category in the lore section? At this point, I leaning towards the belief that both Alchemy and Artifacts should be represented as categories, but I'm not sure exactly what you have planned.

I'm specifically wondering about the artifacts of Daedric Princes and how we should handle those, because I'm seeing some redundancies. For instance, Lore:Nocturnal has a section for the Skeleton Key, which seems entirely unnecessary given the fine standalone article you've created for it. I was going to edit Nocturnal's page, but I realized there were basically two ways to handle it. My first instinct was to mention the Skeleton Key's relevance to Nocturnal in a few sentences and link to the Key's article for the details. But I noticed some Daedric Prince pages, such as Lore:Mehrunes Dagon, are transcluding the full articles of relevant artifacts. I can see why that approach was taken, but it struck me as unnecessary, and it seems to side-track the pages from discussing the Princes.

So what direction would you like the Daedric Prince pages to go: should we transclude the artifact pages, or merely mention when relevant and link? Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 00:47, 25 September 2012 (GMT)

For the Daedric Prince articles, I've been transcluding the new articles on any which previously had a section, but I agree that those sections aren't particularly relevant. Simply proving links to the artifact pages would be the best option in my opinion. Obviously, having two separate entries for an article should be avoided.

As for Lore:Artifacts, I'm not entirely decided on how it should be formatted. Having a separate category would probably be the best way of doing it. At the moment, I'm just transcluding all the articles on a single page simply to get rid of the low-quality descriptions which were originally there. I didn't want to start changing the layout before all the artifact articles were created, but that's proving to be a long-term goal, so at this point it might be worth getting the category up and running. —Legoless (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2012 (GMT)

You know, I became completely side-tracked from what prompted me to ask you about this: do you have a Bow of Shadows article in the works? It's been in at least a couple game now, so it seems to qualify. If not, I could set one up. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 20:43, 27 September 2012 (GMT)

I've been planning to write it, but I have nothing done on it yet. The articles usually only take an hour to type up. If you want to have a go at it, you're welcome to try your hand. The Bow of Shadows is particularly interesting, as it apparently appears in Redguard as an unassuming bow. —Legoless (talk) 20:56, 27 September 2012 (GMT)

All set. I wasn't sure if possession of the bow can be traced to a specific person in Morrowind, as it's apparently lying on a desk in a tomb inhabited by a couple named NPCs. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 21:40, 27 September 2012 (GMT)

I've expanded the article slightly. It seems that Goris the Maggot King was the owner of the Bow in Morrowind, since it's found next to his chest, and the other dude is just a random bandit. —Legoless (talk) 22:32, 27 September 2012 (GMT)

Sick and disgusting vandalismEdit

NigerianPrince2ElectricBoogaloo, (clearly a troll from his name alone) replaced the Skyrim box cover art with a image of someone doing something extremely lewd with their bum, I've revert the image back to true Skyrim box cover art, but said lewd picture still remains.

Can you please delete this picture and punish him accordingly? I'd recommend just deleting his account and banning his IP, hes only here to cause trouble.

Regards,

Jake Command Wolf 23:15, 25 September 2012‎ (GMT)

I've deleted the images, and Eshe has banned him. —Legoless (talk) 23:30, 25 September 2012 (GMT)

Thanks for deleting the image, Legoless—as soon as I tried to do it, the page completely stopped loading for me :(. ⇠eshe^talk 23:31, 25 September 2012 (GMT)

Yeah, not sure what was up with that. A hard refresh worked for me. —Legoless (talk) 23:32, 25 September 2012 (GMT)

A previous user with the simple name of Nigerian Prince did the same sort of thing a few months back. This would need looked into further. Here is a link to their appeal. Golden Silence^{Break the Silence} 23:38, 25 September 2012 (GMT)

I'd forgotten about that, Silencer. It may be something we should add to the blacklist to help prevent this kind of thing in the future.

Also, to clarify, I don't think anyone needs to bother moving this user's "appeal" to the AN. In my opinion the post he/she has made doesn't qualify as an appeal in any way (per the Blocking Policy), so nobody should feel obligated to put it to a vote until that's changed :). ⇠eshe^talk 23:47, 25 September 2012 (GMT)

RoriksteadEdit

I mainly made my edit to avoid using the word "contradict", which I think has to be used carefully. While there are many definitions for contradict, one is "show to be wrong: to show that something is not true or that the opposite is true". So I think some readers applying that definition may see that word used and think the only possibility to explain the written evidence and Rorik's claims is that one of them (Rorik) is false, which isn't accurate. It's also possible that Rorikstead was abandoned and then re-founded after the Great War by Rorik. So I was trying to leave the possibility open; that both the written record and Rorik's claims could be accurate. This was also the approach taken on Skyrim:Rorikstead, where it admits it's possible that the "current town is the namesake of an ancient predecessor". Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 23:33, 25 September 2012 (GMT)

The fact that the refounder's name is Rorik implies that he was the original founder of the settlement, giving it its name. This is completely contradicted when this Fourth Era nobleman's name appears in ancient documents. I have no idea how the article is supposed to remain neutral and ambiguous over such a blatant hole in the lore. Perhaps the situation should be fully explained in the Notes section, at the price of leaving the main text slightly confusing by removing any references to a contradiction. —Legoless (talk) 23:44, 25 September 2012 (GMT)

See, that's the thing; using the above definition of contradict, Rorik's claim is not completely contradicted by the written evidence, because there's a way to interpret each that would allow them both to be true. Like, the settlement is abandoned some time in the last few centuries, the soldier Rorik comes out of the Great War with some coin, so he decides to rebuild Rorikstead. Thus, he could somewhat accurately claim to have founded the town, and that it's named after him, even though it had existed for ages. When I see a sentence saying that something contradicts something else, I think "they can't both be right". Like, the claim Tiber Septim was born in Atmora contradicts the claim he was born in High Rock. Instead of saying "this claim contradicts written evidence", we could say "this claim is hard to reconcile with the written evidence". I think that would be neutral enough. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 00:08, 26 September 2012 (GMT)

I just don't like all these interpretations and "possibilities" being included in the main text of a place article. I don't really mind the wording, as long as the situation is explained clearly in the Notes, so that the reader can decide what to believe. Another case of Skyrim's developers not keeping good track of their new lore... —Legoless (talk) 16:04, 26 September 2012 (GMT)

I took another stab at it, putting the facts up front and noting the discrepancy. I'm not sure if this is was an actual mistake so much as a frustrating character choice. Judging by the cadence in Rorik's dialogue, I suspect they intended for him to be a liar. I think they were ****ing with us, the people who try to delve in and sort this stuff out. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 20:39, 27 September 2012 (GMT)

Looks good. —Legoless (talk) 20:56, 27 September 2012 (GMT)

(←) It was probably just the developers getting their lore mixed up, again. All we need to worry about is how to put it on the page - Emzi 43 — Unsigned comment by 86.138.31.194 (talk) at 19:17 on 2 November 2012 (GMT)

Battlespire Bestiary Incomplete?Edit

I just stumbled across the Bestiary page of Battlespire after it has been a while I concerned myself with the game, and saw you put an incomplete tag there, why?. All enemies you will encounter are there. I've played the game twice so I know what you will encounter. The only creatures missing are some named enemies like the wraith of level 3, but they look the same as the regular wraiths and I believe they have the same statistics also. So my question is, what makes you believe there is something amiss?--PLRDLF (talk) 00:02, 11 October 2012 (GMT)

In particular, the lack of an entry for the Soul Cairn enemies is what made me add the tag (Mistman, Boneman, Wrathman). Even if they're identical to regular Wraith enemies, they should still be listed somewhere. Ideally, we'll eventually have all of the game's dialogue on the site, which might have a major effect on how we currently list enemies in the game. —Legoless (talk) 16:08, 11 October 2012 (GMT)

The names you mention are the names appearing in the dialog screen that's correct. The names on the bestiary page were already there before I've played the game for the first time, so I didn't change them afterwards. However after looking into the game data I found the names used on the bestiary page are used there. So this issue will remain unsolved until a decision, what names shall be used, is made, right ?--PLRDLF (talk) 22:20, 11 October 2012 (GMT)

Might as well leave it the way it is for now. We need to understand the difference between dialogue and enemy types before we start messing with things. It just seems odd that identical enemies would have different names in dialogue. —Legoless (talk) 22:33, 11 October 2012 (GMT)

Taron DrethEdit

I left the death out because it's my understanding that Taron is non-hostile unless he sees you with Aetherium and you tell him where you got it. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 19:50, 12 October 2012 (GMT)

Since there's the possibility that he will be hostile, we might as well assume. The dialogue would suggest that this was what Bethesda intended. Besides, his entry on Lore:People T lists the date of death, so I was trying to keep it consistent. —Legoless (talk) 19:53, 12 October 2012 (GMT)

ArngeirEdit

I know it seems backwards, but he's actually the most powerful, and that's why he can speak normally while the others can't. Besides the fact that he's the highest-level NPC in the game and Paarthurnax's right-hand man, there's this dialogue from the game acknowledging Arngeir as the "oldest and most powerful" Greybeard. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 22:46, 13 October 2012 (GMT)

Thanks for that, I guess I got the wrong impression from Arngeir's dialogue. My fault for not siding with the Stormcloaks yet... —Legoless (talk) 14:44, 14 October 2012 (GMT)

Tes4ModEdit

When I tried moving that page it gave me a bad entry, which states that the page cannot be moved because it is already there. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 22:19, 15 October 2012 (GMT)

Weird. It worked for me just there. —Legoless (talk) 22:21, 15 October 2012 (GMT)

I see what is was now, the rename had TES4Mod instead of Tes4Mod, I didn't even notice the "save" at the end. Sorry. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 22:25, 15 October 2012 (GMT)

No problem, glad it was fixed. —Legoless (talk) 22:26, 15 October 2012 (GMT)

Dovahcore imagesEdit

Hello Legoless, I have uploaded 4 images for your Dovahcore image request. Not sure if you wanted full body image or not, but the ones I've uploaded are half body shots, so it draws more attention to their face. If you want them to be full body images, I could retake them. — Kunvulonin^{Künvülänin} 02:05, 21 October 2012 (GMT)

Thanks Kunvulonin, they look great! The half body shots are perfect. —Legoless (talk) 02:10, 21 October 2012 (GMT)

Lore:RacesEdit

I am grateful if you would like to improve upon my efforts for the Lore:Races "article" (it's really just a skeleton list), but your change which you described as "Removing spacing and inappropriate link placement" looks like a glorified revert to me.

If the link placement is inappropriate, please move it to its proper place. If it is the linkage itself you dislike, feel free to paraphrase the "Notes..." content in the article.

But don't just delete my efforts without giving me a clue what I am doing wrong or how to proceed improving the article (see the talk page for a discussion) Cheers CapnZapp (talk) 18:10, 21 October 2012 (GMT)

A link to that book would be better suited as a reference or in a "See Also" section. Adding it to the top of the page as an alternative to incorporating the information in article format is a wasted effort and doesn't look good. I'm not sure how you could go about improving the page, as it seems to serve more as a nexus/list than as a legitimate article. —Legoless (talk) 18:40, 21 October 2012 (GMT)

On the other hand, it precisely because of reverts like yours that the page never grows into an article. How can I turn the page into a "legitimate article" if you reason it serves more as a list, when the reason you think that is because nobody has grown it into an article! CapnZapp (talk) 12:33, 26 October 2012 (GMT)

Thank you for your "See Also" suggestion. However, this runs precisely counter to my aims, which is to move away from the "nexus/list" format and turn the page into a full-blown article - an article with running text as opposed to individual data/links... The only way I can do so is with the help from you and others; I am no lore expert, and can only provide the barest nucleus - something others can then improve upon. CapnZapp (talk) 12:33, 26 October 2012 (GMT)

Incorporating and collecting information from elsewhere is precisely what this page needs. How can that be a "wasted effort"? And regarding it "doesn't look good" criticism; that would be because the bare-bones beginnings never had any chance to grow into a viable article. Cheers CapnZapp (talk) 12:33, 26 October 2012 (GMT)

CapnZapp, I highly suggest that you make a sandbox (such as under User:CapnZapp/Sandbox) to prepare such an article. Whenever you're thinking about making a large-scale revision to an article, then preparing it in a sandbox is highly recommended. Currently, the page serves as a list for all of the races, and Legoless is making sure that it remains as high-quality as it can. If you prepare a good replacement for it, then I'm sure Legoless (and others) will be willing to help tweak it to their preferences and then launch it, rather than revert it. • JA ^T 15:26, 26 October 2012 (GMT)

Like Jak said, lore articles are generally kept to a high standard. Turning a list into a "barebones article" generally isn't going to be of any help. If you don't feel confident enough to write a full, high-quality article, adding the relevant links to a "See Also" section would be the best alternative, as they can direct both readers and editors to related content. Adding a book link to the top of the page encourages laziness and minimalism, since most editors will conclude that it is sufficient and the actual information will never be properly integrated. I'm also not entirely sure the race page needs to be an article; it covers far too broad a topic for much of the suggested content to be relevant. —Legoless (talk) 15:47, 26 October 2012 (GMT)

Images from official ESO siteEdit

Hey Legoless, it's Jak. I have some ESO questions, and since you're the only other major editor working with it, I figured I'd ask you. I've been browsing the official [www.elderscrollsonline.com Elder Scrolls Online website], and taking images that I thought were relevant or interesting. I've taken pretty much every single image used on the site, including background images, icons, you name it. (I know that you know all of this, I'm just explaining in case someone else reads this.) However, I have two problems related to uploading them to the website:

What should I name the images?
Which images should I upload?

For the first one, I was thinking something along the lines of ON-website-..., but I'm not sure. The second one, however, is much more problematic. Images like this appear to have some significance, even if it isn't known. Others, like this and this are interesting as well. Also, we HAVE to use this image in some way. Some of the images, though, like these ones, are not as useful. The problem is, pretty much all of the images on their site have some significance, as either a screenshot, logo, or hand-drawn piece of art. Another equally important problem is, where do we put these images? Unless we plan to copy their site's layout entirely, we won't have a place for all of those images. • JA ^T 04:51, 26 October 2012 (GMT)

A few of the images serve a purpose on the website, and could be integrated into UESP articles in a similar way (e.g., the concept art on Online:Ebonheart Pact). Almost all of them could be addded to Online:Concept Art, especially ones with no other obvious use. I haven't actually read a lot of the new information, but it may be time to begin work on gameplay pages (such as a page detailing PvP mechanics), where a lot of these images could be put to use. As for image names, "concept" and "prerelease" are the two most common categories being used, but Category:Online-Images has a full list of other prefixes. "ON-misc-" can always be used if in doubt. An image doesn't necessarily need a use to be worth uploading. —Legoless (talk) 15:47, 26 October 2012 (GMT)

Bot picking a fight with youEdit

Sorry about the multiple renames of that Morrowind image. I had to re-run the bot and it picked up the change needing to be made and re-did it. I'll put it back in a sec. It'll also change the links later on as well, so we'll have to revert that change as well. – Robin Hood↝talk 21:24, 29 October 2012 (GMT)

No problem, sorry for creating extra work. Thought removing the category would help. —Legoless (talk) 21:48, 29 October 2012 (GMT)

Under normal circumstances, that would've done the trick, but because page moves can be a little touchy to stop and resume, it saves a copy of what it started with and uses that on re-runs until I delete the file. – Robin Hood↝talk 20:20, 30 October 2012 (GMT)

New ESO template?Edit

While perusing the site code for the Official Elder Scrolls Online website, I came across something that we could possibly implement on our website. It is a stylized gold box that is used to border items of significance (usually pictures). On the site, you can see it in action here, around the two images for "Story" and "The Alliance War".

To see this in action, go to this website, copy the code below and paste it, and then hit "show the output".

<html>
<header>
<style type="text/css">

.ESO-box {
    border:4px solid;
    -webkit-border-image:url("http://static.elderscrollsonline.com/assets/img/border/gold-square.png") 4 4 4 4 repeat;
    -moz-border-image:url("http://static.elderscrollsonline.com/assets/img/border/gold-square.png") 4 4 4 4 repeat;
    -ms-border-image:url("http://static.elderscrollsonline.com/assets/img/border/gold-square.png") 4 4 4 4 repeat;
    -o-border-image:url("http://static.elderscrollsonline.com/assets/img/border/gold-square.png") 4 4 4 4 repeat;
    border-image:url("http://static.elderscrollsonline.com/assets/img/border/gold-square.png") 4 4 4 4 repeat;
    behavior:url(/PIE.htc);
    width:97%
}
</style>
</header>
<body>

<table class="ESO-box" cellpadding=2 cellspacing=0 style="width: auto; float:left;">
<tr><td>
<img src="http://static.elderscrollsonline.com/assets/img/game-guide/gg-story.jpg" />
</td></tr></table>
<table class="ESO-box" cellpadding=2 cellspacing=0 style="width: auto; float:left; margin-left:10px">
<tr><td>
<img src="http://static.elderscrollsonline.com/assets/img/game-guide/gg-ava.jpg" />
</td></tr></table>


</body>
</html>

The actual code won't be quite this long - most of it is just overhead. This would be used similarly to {{SkyrimBox}}, except because of its subtlety, it could be used more frequently. If we would be interested in using this, then we'd have to edit MediaWiki:Common.css. • JA ^T 05:22, 4 November 2012 (GMT)

Very nice! {{SkyrimBox}} has certainly proved useful, so this looks like it could make a nice addition. In particular, I imagine this would make quoting large chunks of text more appealing, but I'm sure it has other uses. —Legoless (talk) 12:32, 4 November 2012 (GMT)

Alright. To make this work, go to MediaWiki:Common.css and add the following lines to the bottom of the file:

/* For use by Template:ESO Box */
.ESO-box {
    border:4px solid;
    -webkit-border-image:url("http://images.uesp.net/3/3a/Template-ESO_Box.png") 4 4 4 4 repeat;
    -moz-border-image:url("http://images.uesp.net/3/3a/Template-ESO_Box.png") 4 4 4 4 repeat;
    -ms-border-image:url("http://images.uesp.net/3/3a/Template-ESO_Box.png") 4 4 4 4 repeat;
    -o-border-image:url("http://images.uesp.net/3/3a/Template-ESO_Box.png") 4 4 4 4 repeat;
    border-image:url("http://images.uesp.net/3/3a/Template-ESO_Box.png") 4 4 4 4 repeat;
    behavior:url(/PIE.htc);
    width:97%
}

• JA ^T 00:05, 5 November 2012 (GMT)

Just a heads-up, this code has been moved over now :). ⇠eshe^talk 17:05, 5 November 2012 (GMT)

Buffalo in Redguard?Edit

I was combing through images on the site, and I noticed your shot of a buffalo from Redguard. I've never played Redguard, and this seems to be the only evidence of buffalo existing in TES, so I wanted to make sure it wasn't some kind of joke or shape-shifting daedra. Is there any reason not to include it in the Lore Bestiary? Is it identified specifically as a buffalo, or could it perhaps be a poorly rendered bull? Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 07:44, 10 November 2012 (GMT)

I have no idea what it is. I found the picture online, where someone had submitted it to an abandonware hosting site. I'd leave it out of lore until we get some kind of confirmation on what it is. —Legoless (talk) 12:45, 10 November 2012 (GMT)

Sorry to just jump in but I think it looks almost identical to a cow from Skyrim. RIM (talk) 13:03, 10 November 2012 (GMT)

The fact that it seems to be in the wilderness makes me doubt it's a domesticated cow, but you never know. The wiki doesn't document the passive animals in Redguard. Tamriel-Almanach has a decent bestiary. —Legoless (talk) 15:33, 10 November 2012 (GMT)

What is that, German? My German's a little non-existent. I think we have documented a few passive creatures from Redguard, like dolphins. But anyways, I guess I'll leave it alone for now. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 16:14, 10 November 2012 (GMT)

Yes, that's German. – Robin Hood↝talk 19:31, 10 November 2012 (GMT)

Template:EsimageEdit

Hi. What did you want to do on Template:Esimage? --JR (talk) 05:03, 11 November 2012 (GMT)

Sorry? I don't remember saying anything about the template. —Legoless (talk) 13:33, 11 November 2012 (GMT)

Haha. Allow me to try again: I just noticed that your last edit/s to it did not seem to go as you intended. --JR (talk) 13:43, 11 November 2012 (GMT)

Have they not? My edits were simply mimicking Elliot's addition, to display a logo when a certain parameter is added. It seems to work as intended (see this and this). —Legoless (talk) 13:49, 11 November 2012 (GMT)

OK. I don't really understand much about it. I assumed that it was "supposed to" show the logo for Zenimax, while I recognized that it could be changed. I responded just because: Every time I saw it before (I'm talking about looking at the template page itself), it showed Zenimax's logo on the right. Now, it just shows some text instead of the graphic. So, I thought it was supposed to be showing a graphic but was not.

Not important to me. I've never used it, and don't know when I ever might. I was just looking at a bunch of things related to copyright/IP issues, and I assumed it was "not supposed" to look like it looks now. --JR (talk) 14:28, 11 November 2012 (GMT)

Sounds like some kind of caching issue. It displays fine for me. —Legoless (talk) 14:32, 11 November 2012 (GMT)

It shows [[File:|140px]] instead of an image on {{esimage}} itself for me. Previewing a change or copying the template to a sandbox does display the Bethesda image for me. Making a minor edit to the template may fix this, but not sure if this is important enough as long as it displays fine on the image pages. --Alfwyn (talk) 16:53, 11 November 2012 (GMT)

Oh, that. Doesn't seem important enough to fix, IMO. —Legoless (talk) 16:56, 11 November 2012 (GMT)

Keening?Edit

Hey, Legoless. Love the dragon articles you made recently. Did you have a lore page for Keening in the works? I noticed you had a spot set up for it at Lore:Artifacts, but no text yet. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 05:43, 13 November 2012 (GMT)

Wasn't me who added the section, but it's definitely on my to-do list. No work done yet though. You seem to have a much better grasp of the Morrowind lore than I, so if you want to try your hand, feel more than welcome. —Legoless (talk) 17:25, 13 November 2012 (GMT)

Hey, Legoless, has the Keening page been made yet in a sandbox; I can't see it. If you want, I can take a stab at it.--Br3admax (talk) 23:22, 29 November 2012 (GMT)

Nope, still no work done on it. You can try writing it yourself if you want. —Legoless (talk) 18:08, 30 November 2012 (GMT)

Okay, I've started this. I felt that since none of the tools have a large amount of lore without each other, I would make one large page. Right now, it's really just in-game, but I plan to add the nature of the tools and references form lore like, this. A good start?--Br3admax (talk) 16:07, 2 December 2012 (GMT)

Seems like a good idea to merge them, although the history of each specific artifact could be expanded upon more (owners, etc). —Legoless (talk) 16:34, 2 December 2012 (GMT)

The Wolf QueenEdit

Hi dude! We had our fair share of disagreements on certain subjects but I respect your background knowledge nonetheless hence I want to ask a favor of you! Could you please clarify for me if there were indeed two separate Mantiarcos in TES history, one being the husband of queen Potema and the other her son Emperor Uriel Septim III (Uriel Mantiarco). At least "The Wolf Queen" claims that. If that's the case then the link in Vol. 2 and 3 leading to her son instead of her husband would be a mistake. Is it kay to correct it?

I'd also like to add the "douad shrub" mentioned in book three of the same series to the Lore:Flora section since it meets the guidelines of "what qualifies as flora?" but I have no clue in what province it grows. The book mentions a dining "across the Imperial Garden at the Blue Palace" but the only Blue Palace I know of stands in Solitude. -Shimenawa (talk) 14:37, 29 November 2012 (GMT)

I imagine Uriel III was named after his father, who was King Mantiarco. I can't actually see any reference to "Uriel Mantiarco" in The Wolf Queen, so I don't know where that information was taken from; I'm not overly familiar with the Septims. Adding an entry for the douad shrub would be a great idea. You could simply state that the shrub is "a garden plant grown in the gardens of Solitude" - since we don't have any more information on it, we have to assume that this is the case (similar to the flora found in Mournhold, e.g. Nirthfly). —Legoless (talk) 21:29, 29 November 2012 (GMT)

There is a single reference to this in Brief History of the Empire v 2 ("Uriel III not only proclaimed himself Emperor of Tamriel, but also Uriel Septim III, taking the eminent surname as a title. In truth, his surname was Mantiarco from his father's line.") while Potema's two respective biographies claim her husband initially wanted to bestow his name on his second-born but she convinced him to give him the name of her grandfather instead.

The plant actually confounds me! The sentence it appears in is vague in more than just one way. "An hour later, passing the black branches of the sculpted douad shrubs, Potema noticed a dark figure, which vanished into the shadows under the eaves at her approach." >Sculpted< as in pruned, shaped or carved from stone?! And even more important: The whole book strongly implies (without ever decidedly stating it) that this Blue Palace was meant to be in the Imperial City, not Solitude! I'm somewhat at a loss here. Any advice? Shimenawa (talk) 22:56, 29 November 2012 (GMT)

"Sculpted" in this context refers to shaping/pruning the bush into a decorative shape. I can't see anything that would suggest the Imperial City as the location of the Blue Palace (for example, the following sentence would seem to contract this: "Kintyra sat in her tower suite and by the light of the moon and a single tallow candle, she penned a letter to her husband-to-be, Lord Modellus, back in the Imperial City."), and since we know from Skyrim that the Blue Palace is located in Solitude, assuming otherwise would probably be incorrect. However, I haven't actually read the books fully, so I might be wrong. In any case, excluding the location entirely from the flora entry may be best, if there's a lot of unnecessary ambiguity relating to their location. —Legoless (talk) 23:02, 29 November 2012 (GMT)

You got confused about the volumes there ;) The sentence I quoted came from book three where Potema was "the last to appear" at her fathers funeral and the coronation of the next Emperor with "a magnificent entourage, accompanied by her husband, the elderly King Mantiarco and her year-old son, Uriel." Said father was Pelagius Septim II who lived all his life with his oldest son Prince Antiochus in the Imperial City. Both the Imperial Gardens and the Imperial Court are mentioned. Antiochus' conversation with his Spymaster implies that he knows the local bordellos very well and visits them frequently. A dead Emperors funeral, the coronation of his successor underway, a heir apparent who rarely leaves the city yet has an 'appointment' in his favored brothel, the pompous arrival of the queen with husband and son and the fact that "imperial" places are mentioned twice, always hinting at her being slightly uncomfortable with the setting might lead to certain conclusions as to where the scene takes places.

The part with Kintyra on the other hand happened years later at Glenpoint Castle, High Rock ;) But I guess I'll best follow your advice and omit the origin of the plant; Just to make sure. -Shimenawa (talk) 23:38, 29 November 2012 (GMT)

The use of "imperial" as an adjective doesn't really imply any relation with the Imperial City. Solitude has very strong Imperial ties, which would explain the southern-style gardens and the Septims' familiarity with the place. But again, I'm not familiar with the text, as is apparent from my utter lack of comprehension when it comes to quoting it. :P —Legoless (talk) 18:07, 30 November 2012 (GMT)

Given that the plant could have been introduced into the gardens from any province whatsoever it doesn't matter much anyway :P But on a totally unrelated subject: I'm planning to completely overhaul the Lore:Vampire page tomorrow - it's in a terrible shape and dire need of some improving. I would feel way more sanguine (pun intended) if an admin -namely you- looked over my shoulder in a manner of speaking ;) Shimenawa (talk) 22:34, 1 December 2012 (GMT)

I'll make sure to keep my eyes on it, although I've kind of purposefully avoided that page after tagging it for cleanup. All I can say is, good luck. Removing game-related info from a heavily game-related subject is going to be tough, so you might be better off trying to rewrite large sections of the article, rather than attempting to salvage the current content. —Legoless (talk) 22:51, 1 December 2012 (GMT)

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