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Lore talk:Padomay

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:: I believe that when it comes to deities, different cultures have different stories and creation myths. Differences in cultural beliefs should be noted within ONE deities pages and the different names per culture also within that page.[[User:Zebendal|Zebendal]] ([[User talk:Zebendal|talk]]) 00:46, 22 March 2020 (GMT)
 
::So id like to throw my two cents in because I think this is one of those things where if the wrong decision is made the integrity of the wiki takes a slight hit, considering these are some of the biggest concepts/deities in the lore. So while it is very true that we have a solitary source that outright conflates Padomay and Sithis (and Anuiel and Anu for that matter) I think context matters in how 100 percent we can take that. In the later Altmeri myth of the text, we see Anuiel and Sithis be put a peg below Anu despite the earlier conflation. Now it becomes a matter of some original research/theorizing to satisfy either argument. On one hand you can argue since Padomay isn’t mentioned alongside Anu here that he isn’t in this mythos and “Anu the everything” is some type of “peg above” on the other hand you can argue that the absence of a MENTION of Padomay doesn’t necessarily mean an absence of Padomay from said mythos. Either way it’s undeniable that the Monomyth instantly breaks its rules that it establishes in the opening line later in the Altmeri text and we have to do the assumptions to reach conclusions because of it. I certainly do NOT think it’s in good faith to claim that the only reading is that Anu the everything is some higher peg and that Anuiel and Sithis are fitting the Anu/Padomay role. (The book says Anu and his equal are always the beginning so technically the fact that Sithis and Anuiel come later should say enough but that’s just my opinion.) Beyond this I would point to the 36 lessons of Vivec and the book “Sithis” two dunmer texts on the matter and point out that Sithis/Sithisit and Padhome/Padomay are both present in both of these texts seemingly in a different context. You could argue that this is the dunmer using both names in a single text but for specific religious texts and not educational religious texts like say varieties of faith this is very uncommon so in my personal opinion is the less likely. Also in the song of Pelinal Pelinal Padomay and Sithis are used in slightly different context. Now let’s say that Padomay and Sithis are without a shadow of a doubt the same being, (which imo is not a conclusion to be reached based on the full picture) I would still be very much against a merge for the simple fact that Sithis is often used in VERY different contexts than anything Padomay has ever been tied to. Sithis is stated by atleast three sources to be a god/god of death and is of course the patron spirit of the dark brotherhood. This couldn’t be any more removed from Padomay who is never once stated to be a God or patron being of any organization. Padomay and his equivalents are only ever tied to creation myths where he/she/it opposes its opposite Anu. To do a merge and simply conflate a primordial force like Padomay with the God/patron spirit side of Sithis would be a disservice to both “characters”. Enodoc made some great points in that with Padomay he/she is there for the beginning of creation and then peaces our for all of eternity. Sithis is from the beginning (or a little after) and onwards and unlike Padomay is an active force that is worshiped and revered in multiple cultures. Always with the name Sithis. If it’s Padomay or otherwise it’s an origin story and then gone. Basically this is quite a larger gray area than merging say Shor and Lorkhaj, or Akatosh and Auriel and I don’t even think those type of pages have any business being merged, much less these two. P.S. I understand this hasn’t been commented on in months but stumbled upon it as I went to make edits on the Padomay page earlier today so I wanted to put my thoughts in before any kind of decision was made.[[User:Dcking20|Dcking20]] June 20, 2020
 
is not a conclusion to be reached based on the full picture) I would still be very much against a merge for the simple fact that Sithis is often used in VERY different contexts than anything Padomay has ever been tied to. Sithis is stated by atleast three sources to be a god/god of death and is of course the patron spirit of the dark brotherhood. This couldn’t be any more removed from Padomay who is never once stated to be a God or patron being of any organization. Padomay and his equivalents are only ever tied to creation myths where he/she/it opposes its opposite Anu. To do a merge and simply conflate a primordial force like Padomay with the God/patron spirit side of Sithis would be a disservice to both “characters”. Enodoc made some great points in that with Padomay he/she is there for the beginning of creation and then peaces our for all of eternity. Sithis is from the beginning (or a little after) and onwards and unlike Padomay is an active force that is worshiped and revered in multiple cultures. Always with the name Sithis. If it’s Padomay or otherwise it’s an origin story and then gone. Basically this is quite a larger gray area than merging say Shor and Lorkhaj, or Akatosh and Auriel and I don’t even think those type of pages have any business being merged, much less these two. P.S. I understand this hasn’t been commented on in months but stumbled upon it as I went to make edits on the Padomay page earlier today so I wanted to put my thoughts in before any kind of decision was made.[[User:Dcking20|Dcking20]] June 20, 2020
::: With respect, man, I feel like the arguments above already address most of these. I'll run through these rq, though.
::: - "Either way it’s undeniable that the Monomyth instantly breaks its rules that it establishes in the opening line later in the Altmeri text and we have to do the assumptions to reach conclusions because of it."
:::No, it doesn't. It lists each name as synonymous with one another, has the Psijics use the name Padomay, and has the Altmeri Mythos use the name Sithis.
::: - "Beyond this I would point to the 36 lessons of Vivec and the book “Sithis” two dunmer texts on the matter and point out that Sithis/Sithisit and Padhome/Padomay are both present in both of these texts seemingly in a different context."
:::There is barely context for the 'Padhome' references in the 36 lessons, all it ever refers to is the Daedra being the offspring of Padhome in some way. Sithis, meanwhile, has Sithis fulfilling Padomay's role of being the Nothing that existed prior to the creation of the Aurbis. Additionally, saying it would be weird for the sermons to use alternate names like this ignores that the Padhome text comes from the same sermon that uses the name 'Boet-Hi-Ah', an alternative spelling of Boethiah that is literally never used anywhere or ever pronounced this way. Additionally, Sithis the book explicitly states that Sithis not only predates Anui-El, but was the creator of Anui-El.
:::- "Also in the song of Pelinal Pelinal Padomay and Sithis are used in slightly different context."
:::the context here is "And it is said that he emerged into the world like a Padomaic, that is, borne by Sithis and all the forces of change therein.", which is literally just saying "Like a daedra, which is to be born from Sithis", aka a role the Anuad gives to Padomay. Thats not a different context at all, they are still being used as synonyms here.
 
:::"Padomay and his equivalents are only ever tied to creation myths where he/she/it opposes its opposite Anu. To do a merge and simply conflate a primordial force like Padomay with the God/patron spirit side of Sithis would be a disservice to both “characters”."
::: This is just compeltely ignoring the fact that Sithis is always tied to the exact same creation myths, and also ignoring that Fadomai DOES have active worshippers in Khajiiti religions. To try and split them into 'god' and 'creation myth' character just doesn't work when both names are used in both roles.
:::Finally, the biggest issue with keeping them separate is that if we choose to split the pages wholly, then the Padomay page just becomes completely redundant. I made this sandbox to show my main point for this, that if we remove all the the information that doesn't apply to Padomay themself, but a different version, this is the page we're left with: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/User:Jacksol/sandbox1
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