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Online talk:Wraith-of-Crows

Wraith of Crows are creaturesEdit

I'd like to open this discussion by saying that I'm basing this on arguments made for the difference between the two in the discussion on the CP, and that I don't personally feel these are the only reasons. The main reason is that all Wraith-of-Crows use the same abilities (aside from unique ones for bosses). There are no "classes". This comment was made during the discussions about creatures vs NPCs:

"In ESO, the only distinction between creatures and NPCs, apart from humanoid body form, is fighting style. If you play the game for long enough, you start to notice that most NPC types, be they Bloodthorn Cultists or Dremora, are categorised into specific fighting classes (usually "Charger", "Pyromancer", "Rogue" etc). Creatures, on the other hand, usually have only one system of attack.
I think if we use this class system to judge between NPCs and creatures, it will result in a wiki categorization that's much more complementary to this specific game. This means that enemies that we might otherwise judge to be creatures, such as Golden Saints, Goblins and Lamia, are given NPC status."

By this definition (Amongst others), Wraith-of-Crows are creatures and should be categorized as such. The only argument, that I can see from the previous discussion, where Wraith-of-Crows fits in the NPC column is that it has a polymorph. But, as the page states, the polymorph ISN'T a wraith-of-crows, it is modified to fit an NPC frame. There are no wings on the polymorph. Clearly this shows that the actual Wraith-of-Crows isn't treated by the game as an NPC, but as a creature. In fact, none of the wraith-of-crows have gender marked in the lang file, whereas for NPCs, they generally ALL have them marked (even skeletons and dremora have them marked).

Essentially, I'd like to revert the recent changes to the Wraith-of-Crows back to creatures (where they were defined as such for, I think, nearly two years now). Jeancey (talk) 18:01, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Wraith-of-Crows use the standard NPC model, as is apparent given their availability as a polymorph. This is the standard criteria; it is not "modified to fit an NPC frame", it is the same model with the same animations (or any other NPC animations available via Personalities).
The lack of wings doesn't have any bearing on whether something is a creature or not, they are not part of the animation skeleton and were presumably removed for the same reason ZOS recently removed wings from the Scion transformation on PTS.
Datamined gender markers which have no visibility or effect on gameplay shouldn't be a criteria either.
Stating that Wraith-of-Crows have no classes and therefore should be excluded misses the key part of the above quote: "the only distinction between creatures and NPCs, apart from humanoid body form". Aurorans also don't have traditional NPC classes, and Pumpkin Spectres don't have any classes either given they don't even appear as NPCs, so this argument doesn't fly.
In summary, there is no basis for a reversion when it is clear to anybody who wishes to verify that both Wraith-of-Crows players and NPCs use the same a humanoid model and animations. The fact that they were miscategorised for 2 years is due to this unelaborated change you made following my previous 2018 correction. —⁠Legoless (talk) 18:20, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
So all Humanoids are NPCs, all non-Humanoids are creatures? I just want to clarify for the future, to prevent this disagreements. Aside from the discussion, can we list the criteria somewhere, maybe on the template page, so new NPCs/Creatures have an easy list to follow? Jeancey (talk) 18:26, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Edit: Rim of the Sky has pointed out that this image shows an NPC Wraith-of-Crows stuck in an A-pose, which is different from the usual skeleton animations for NPCs. I also notice that their legs are digitigrade which is different from the available polymorph (i.e. not just the wings that are different). Going to have to take another look in-game but if the NPCs do have different animations from polymorphed players then obviously it doesn't meet our criteria and I'd support a reversion. —⁠Legoless (talk) 18:27, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
I'd have to agree that all Wraith of Crows enemies encountered in-game are not NPCs, the only npc-like thing they do is that they have is that they probably use Soul-Shriven style axes, the same way Liches use Lich style staves. NPC classification is based off whether they use the player's animation rig, and Wraith-of-Crows quite clearly have a different one, but I don't know if they share it with anything like so many other creatures do. The Polymorph is definitely an npc skeleton rig, but its quite different from the creature one even without the wings, its generally easy to tell if a polymorph is an npc type if you can preview glitch a skin onto it.
The polymorph is def npc, but Polymorphs are not always the same as what's seen in game as I once pointed out with Draugr, which have a polymorph completely different from what Draugr in-game actually use (and the change I proposed was never applied, but whatever). In the end the Polymorph = NPC, actual enemy = not NPC. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 19:02, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Should we therefore consider keeping Wraith-of-Crows on the {{Races in Online}} footer, but linking to the polymorph entry rather than this page? This could then be converted back to a creature. —⁠Legoless (talk) 00:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Yeah that should work, we'll still have to change all the enemies back to creatures but I think what you're suggesting will be fine to go along with it. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 01:40, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

() On further investigation, I can confirm that Wraith-of-Crows enemies use different animations and models to the player polymorph (see comparison shot). It actually seems like they use the same skeleton/animations as Vampire Lords, which we currently categorise as NPCs. Unless someone beats me to it, I'll be reverting the articles back to creature pages and probably doing the same with Vampire Lords for consistency. —⁠Legoless (talk) 12:45, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Based off the feet I would agree, would also go for Bloodknights. Though all of these creatures are humanoid-like, they don't seem to use the same rig as players. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 19:36, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
Yes, Bloodknights also. —⁠Legoless (talk) 21:53, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
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