Morrowind talk:Trainers

Replacing this pageEdit

Before I make this drastic change, I thought I'd put it to a peer review. I plan to replace this page with this one, which sorts by skill rather than by location. The new page would also make the Morrowind:Master Trainers page obsolete, since the trainers are ordered by skill level rather than alphabetical, so the Masters are on the top of each section. Additionally, such details as "Hostile" have been added, and the exact levels to which they will train each skill are visible on the page. The TOC on top and bottom makes it easy to find pages by skill. Only problems I see are 1.) It's 3 times as long, since every trainer is listed in 3 sections for each skill they train, and 2.) Some people might want a by-location list, though I can't imagine why. If anybody has any reason why they don't want this page replaced, let me know here. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 19:30, 2 December 2006 (EST)

The table you've made is clear and shows exactly the details I want to know when I'm looking for a trainer, so in my opinion, there's no reason to keep the old one. As you say, it's long though, and I think it should eventually be broken up by skill, on seperate pages that contain all relevant info on each skill, but that requires a basic redesign of all skill-related pages, so I'll add that proposal to the Morrowind Redesign Talk page page, once I've thought it through. Nothing you should hold back the replacement of this page for though. Isak 15:18, 3 December 2006 (EST)

Numbers mis-match (formerly: Abelle Chriditte section)Edit

A change here is either questionable, or it may be evidence that a lot of other numbers need changing. Abelle Chirditte teaches Conjuration and Mysticism in addition to being the Master trainer for Alchemy. According to the Construciton Set, her level in these two skills is 81. (This is the only way the game knows how high to allow you to train with any given NPC.) The page was recently changed to indicate that she will train up to 82 points. Now I think this indicates one of several possibilities:

• The game actually calculates whether you can train or not based on a ≤ for your skill prior to training, rather than just a < calculation. If this is the case, then EVERY number on this page is off by one. I sincerely hope that's not true, because that would be a real pain to fix.
• Edwin Herdman had some spell effect on them which increased their skills by one point each, and NPCs only look at your natural un-modified skills to determine if you can train in them.
• Edwin had a mod that alters this.
• NPC skills are leveled, and if you meet her later in the game, her skills will be higher than they are listed in the Construction Set.
• There are multiple versions of the game where her training values differ for some reason.
• Edwin is simply mistaken.

I don't want to accuse anyone of anything, but these numbers are directly out of the Construction Set, so if there are other factors involved, we need to figure out what they are and determine if other changes need to be made. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 23:32, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

I've gone through other trainers, and for all that I've been able to check (Abelle, and Erer and Muriel at Dirty Muriel's Cornerclub) the numbers came out the same - one level higher than in the list. I'm reverting all my changes for now, because the consistency definitely suggests that the original numbers are valid or at least form the basis for the "true" numbers (noted in one of the possibilities you give).

A special spell effect: I don't believe so. In this relatively new game I do not have any items with constant enchantments equipped now, although I have picked up a number of special items (Cuirass of the Savior's Hide being the only one), but I believe I trained with Abelle before the Corprus Disease mission. All the effects I have listed are standard.

A mod that alters this. I have the following installed: Morrowind GotY PC with Tribunal and Bloodmoon. Six of the [expansions] - all but the Entertainers Plugin (no clue why I missed installing that one). Better Heads, including the optional Tribunal and Bloodmoon packages. Better bodies, as well. That's all. A few tweaks to the INI file as well (based off Tweaktown's, plus disabled hit fader).

Levelled: Possible; by the time I started checking things I had carefully raised many of my base attributes to 100 (simply by watching attributes being raised and using lots of gold), without using any master trainers (if you have enough gold, the guild and House Hlaalu trainers in Balmora can raise you in this fashion - in other words, little goes over 60, if even that). I will try this again in a new game to see what happens.

Multiple versions: That would be fun to fix...that said, I have the latest version. The patch for players without Tribunal or Bloodmoon doesn't apply to the Game of the Year edition.

I have fooled around with only a few variables in the console - strength, acrobatics, speed - but was careful at the beginning of the game when power-leveling (just spawned myself some money to use and ran around Balmora leveling everything with trainers to get max level bonuses for three skills at each level-up). I shall start a new game, disable the two unofficial mods (Better bodies/heads), get the Entertainers mod, and investigate this further. If I get the same results, maybe (yet another) reinstall is in order. --Edwin Herdman 01:15, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

The weird thing is, if my first theory about the ≤ instead of < calculation is correct, then theoretically, the Master Trainers should be able to train you to 101 in their highest skill, rather than simply 100. Unless these are an exception to the rule. Perhaps the easiest thing to do would be to put a note at the top saying that the values listed refer to the maximum your skill can be at prior to receiving training, with the exception of the Master Trainers, of course, since no skill can be naturally raised above 100. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 10:37, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

The game has a concrete (at least it is supposed to be) rule that you cannot train a skill over one of its governing attributes. If you have an enchantment or manually set one of your attributes over 100, you will be able to train any skill influenced by that attribute at level 100, but it doesn't register as a skill increase (so there still is some sort of safeguard). You lose gold and a message states that you have increased your level to 100.

I tried levelling via trainer on an older save, and Erer was able to train me in Destruction to 82. So this seems to be consistent behavior for my install of the game. I still have to try it on a new install, just don't have enough time at the moment. --Edwin Herdman 00:37, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Note explaining the numbersEdit

(Arbitrary break with the last discussion, although this is a continuation.) I think that the note on the top of the page adequately explains things (although I would add that you can try to train again but will fail if your skill is at 100 and the governing attribute is at least 100; you lose money), but I wonder what the purpose of keeping the numbers the way they are is. If nobody wants to spend the time to change all the numbers, I'll do it. That said, I would rather the note at the top be moved to the bottom (and altered so that it explains why the numbers appear different in the CS), and the numbers altered so that new players can just glance at them and see the maximum value a trainer can raise them to. I'm not going to go ahead and change it without some consent, but I think the current version has some negatives. --Edwin Herdman 18:19, 31 March 2007 (EDT)

I think the comment belongs on the top, only because everybody who visits this page will see the top of it, and few will scroll all the way to the bottom, as it is quite long. (And the last skill is "Unarmored", which nobody cares about.) I'm reluctant to change all the numbers, only because we generally try as much as possible to use the true numbers straight from the Construction Set whenever possible. (Plus, you'd also have to adjust the numbers on every individual trainer page to match - and there's about to be a lot of those.) I think it's best to leave the numbers as is, with a clear explanation for how they work, which is pretty much the way it's set up now. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 12:10, 4 May 2007 (EDT)

SplitEdit

Let's face it, this page is huge. I'm considering splitting it into [[Morrowind:Combat Trainers]], [[Morrowind:Magic Trainers]], and [[Morrowind:Stealth Trainers]]. What do people think about that? --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 12:10, 4 May 2007 (EDT)

Are there any cross-discipline trainers? How about splitting it down into one subpage per skill? Alphax 10:56, 20 May 2007 (EDT)

I like the idea, I'll help you out on the day you decide to do it. --Jesus lover 23:05, 16 June 2007 (EDT)

I think that is a fantastic idea, an this page can become a redirect, which could show the three sections as links, as opposed to deleting this page altogether, which would actually be quite confusing. YAY.

I think it's a very good idea. However, I would split it by skill, as it is already, and make this page a general description of how to train and how to get it cheap, etc. I would also include a table of contents to the skill trainers pages. --DrPhoton 04:22, 3 December 2007 (EST)

Proposed redesignEdit

I've set up an example of a plan I thought of for this page on my sandbox. (Just did Acrobatics for now.) The idea being that this allows the page to show ALL the trainers, without making it huge and cumbersome like it was before. I basically used the criteria we had before for "notable" trainers - anything 70 or above getting the tables as they currently exist, and anyone below that gets put into just a list with their names linked and nothing else. The sub-pages at Acrobatics Trainers, etc. would remain unchanged, and a link is provided for anyone who really wants to see all the nitty-gritty details, but this page still serves as a home page for trainers, listing all of them and providing details on the select few at the top. Any thoughts on this? --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 15:59, 19 August 2008 (EDT)

Looks pretty clean and useful. I like this solution, if all those links don't affect page load speed. Now if there just was an elegant way to describe which trainers are cheaper then others to train with, but it probably is not worth the hassle. --Benould^•T•C 16:43, 19 August 2008 (EDT)

The price of training in Morrowind even for master-level is so negligible compared to the amount of money you can easily acquire in the game by many means, so even if you have a very low disposition with a trainer (say, Qorwynn), their fees aren't going to break the bank. (Sell one Daedric weapon to the Mudcrab and you can basically train any skill from nothing to maxed in one sitting.) It's the same for travel prices, beds at inns, and for most goods that can be purchased. Once you get past that beginning difficulty, the only things that will use any significant amount of cash are Enchanting, Spellmaking, and maybe Repairs. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 17:50, 19 August 2008 (EDT)

There's no reason why a wealth of links would affect processing or download speed: transforming a wiki reference into a hyperlink is quite trivial, and there are lots of (mostly special) wiki pages which will tend to have more. As for which is cheaper, that is something of a pickle. Ideally the big table would be sortable by cost, but then you would probably have to explicitly associate a level with each for MediaWiki to be able to sort, I'd guess? I wonder if HTML5 datagrids address this oversight... JKing 17:55, 19 August 2008 (EDT)

It is possible to use hidden data to make tables sortable by any means you wish, but the question is how would you determine which trainers are cheaper? It's pretty much based mostly on Disposition, I think, and that will vary based on how much an NPC likes you. Use of Charm and Fortify Personality spells and Persuasion will probably get you better prices. Mercantile skill may play a part, and that would be easier to list, but I'm not sure exactly what the formula is. Again, though, we're talking about such small amounts of money compared to what's easily available in-game that it's barely even worth noting. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 19:23, 19 August 2008 (EDT)

I don't actively dislike the redesign, I just don't think it's necessary. The most important information is on the page already and if you want more detail, you click a link. There's no need to clutter the main page with information that's only a click away. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 14:37, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

Barter to increase trainer's gold?Edit

The page says "Raise a trainer's Disposition toward you to 100 to lower training costs. If you barter with a trainer first, their available gold will be raised temporarily."

I don't understand what increasing a trainer's gold has to do with training. — Unsigned comment by 92.254.208.123 (talk) on 11 August 2010

I think the point is that some trainers are merchants too and increasing their gold will let you sell them more items... but I'm not sure. rpeh •T•C•E• 13:01, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

If you train first, without bartering, then their available gold will remain at their default amount. You have to barter with them first, so their gold changes, then your training money will be added to their available. --Brf 21:25, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Hmmmm.... Yes. I just tested this and training money does indeed get added to a merchant's default gold. That is strange, because I seem to remember having to buy something from them first, or it did not get added in. Maybe it has something to do with their gold getting reset the next day if you train too many times at the same trainer and go into the next day. Yesterday when I trained at Wayn, he had only his 2000 gold afterward, but I had emptied it to zero before. --Brf 11:28, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I see what you mean now. It didn't make sense as written before, but I think what was meant was that you had to barter, train, then barter again? Certainly I've never had to do that - train then barter has always worked fine. rpeh •T•C•E• 11:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Barter, train, then barter again. I seem to remember there was a hint to that effect here somewhere two years ago. I will do some more experimentation later today to see what happens when you train multiple times and go into the next day when their cash resets. I am thinking it usually resets to their default gold. --Brf 11:40, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I did some testing with Wayn. If I walked up to him and trained, without opening his barter window first, then he always had his 2000 afterward. If I opened his barter window first, then my later training money would be added to his cash. Also, I noticed if I trained past 6PM, his cash would be reset to 2000, and I would need to reopen his barter window before any more training, otherwise any training after the 6PM reset was not added in. --Brf 02:46, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Missing Medium Armor trainer vs missing Armorer trainerEdit

Shouldn't Cinia Urtius (training to 100) be displayed under Medium Armor trainers even though bugs makes her not providing that service, just like Sirollus Saccus is for Armorer trainers?
MartinS --92.254.208.123 08:02, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Fair point. I've added her. rpeh •T•C•E• 08:12, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Trainer ClassificationEdit

I see all over this site references to "major," "Medium,' and "minor" trainers. Is there a set rule as to how those are defined? If so where? and if not, should it be made and included here? Halfstache 04:16, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

its just based on how high they can train your skills for example a trainer who can train your marksman to 83 is major and one who can train it to 35 is minor (Eddie the head 04:24, 8 July 2011 (UTC))

Yeah, I've sort of pieced together all that, but only from looking at a lot of trainers pages. I think that it should be made clear on the actual trainer page. Halfstache 03:22, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's really necessary. Since the actual numbers are always on the articles, you can get the details easily enough. rpeh •T•C•E• 09:59, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for the necropost, but still somewhat related to the last message: since the NPC infobox already shows the skills that the NPC trains, perhaps we can do away with the major / medium / minor classification, which does not have an explicit definition anyway? For the NPC blurb, I think a simple "He/She offers training." is more than enough; at least, less wordy than a vague classification and a redundant enumeration of skills that are already listed on the infobox anyway. Any thoughts? Salamangkero (talk) 19:20, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Creating a master trainer?Edit

I try to Create a Master NPC trainer that can train every skill too 100. But fail. He only show block, medium armour and armorer. Even how much skill he has in them. I tried too check the other trainers and look how they did too them but that won't work ehter? Need help. — Unsigned comment by 213.66.51.218 (talk) at 01:15 on 22 April 2012

Going by what is on the page, it looks like a trainer can only offer three skills to train no matter how good they are at those skills. You really only need one trainer and a fortify skill by 100 spell for each skill and you have your master master trainer. The Silencer has spoken^Talk 01:29, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Trainers only offer their top 3 skills for training, period. (Not sure how they handle tie-breakers, but it probably has to do with the order in which the skills are listed in the construction set or something like that.) This is hard-coded and there's nothing you can do about it since you don't have the source code. However, you could get tricky, and modify the NPC's skills via scripts in their dialogue. So you'd first have to ask them about a skill, which would then set that skill to 100 and all others to 99 maybe, and then it would show up on their training list. To switch to a different skill, you'd always have to ask them about it first, but it's the only feasible way I can see of doing it on a single NPC. Alternatively (and much more easily), you could simply make 10 trainers with 3 skills each. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 02:08, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

missing trainer.Edit

Missing a trainer. Ashlander named Subene Subaddamael, hangs out in the camp between Yasammidan and Arkngthunch-Sturdumz, Southwest of Ald Velothi. Trains Athletics, Long Blade and Block. — Unsigned comment by 173.33.110.33 (talk) at 04:15 on 1 February 2016

That's strange. I did a quick check of the CSList, and no results for anyone by that name. Are you running any mods, by chance? —likelolwhat ^{talk lulzy to me} 07:56, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Reduce training costsEdit

You can reduce training costs by 75% or more if you create an enchantment that increases your mercantile by 100 for 2-3 seconds, then cast and immediately train. The object will recover its charge while training. Using this technique for low skills is especially cheap, for example, training a skill from 5 to 6 will cost 6 gold, training from 10-11 will cost 12 gold, etc. I can't believe I never figured this out in 15 years of playing this. 76.174.125.200 09:42, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

no short blade trainers sectionEdit

the short blade trainers section is missing — Unsigned comment by 94.3.78.45 (talk) at 10:58 on 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Restored, thanks for catching that. —⁠Legoless (talk) 11:05, 9 December 2020 (UTC)