Lore talk:Daggerfall (kingdom)

GothlyrEdit

I've restored an edit from an anonymous contributor which added Gothlyr as King of Daggerfall prior to King Mortyn. This was reverted for being speculatory. The source given is The Wolf Queen, which states:

"Who is the current King of Daggerfall? Mortyn, son of Gothlyr."

The context in which this is presented is a tutoring lesson discussing various Tamrielic rulers. "X son of x" is a common way of referring to mononymous persons, particularly kings. In context, I think it's entirely fair to assume that the reason Potema is learning Gothlyr's name is because he was the previous king. —⁠Legoless (talk) 10:51, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Alright! After reading this passage ten times again, it does make sense to me, too. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 17:53, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

GeraldEdit

I restored Gerald because solely based on the context we got for him in the final publication of the game, we can’t treat him as the same figure as Corcyr without original research. He isn’t called any of the things that would make him the clear cut same individual as Corcyr such as the husband of Roane and or Aliera, the father of Edward, the current king of Daggerfall, any of it. The only context we get for him is that he banned Dark Elves in Daggerfall and that the palace in Daggerfall is still named for him at the time of KE but this is a common tradition in monarchies to honor their predecessor and that also isn’t enough to say he’s Corcyr. Lastly the order in which the two figures are mentioned in the book is Corcyr, Gerald, Corcyr, Gerald. Dcking20 (talk) 15:44, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Was in the middle of writing a response on your talkpage for clarity but with the topic here, I'll bring it up here. I'm pretty sure Corcyr and Gerald are the same person based on a couple similarities. Part I says Corcyr is red-haired, later on Gerald in Part IV is described as having red hair in the context of fathers and parents. Both have an apparent hatred to Dark Elves, Part II says Corcyr despises Dark Elves and Gerald apparently hates them enough to ban them, according to Part IV.

The part that makes me think they are supposed to be the same person is this line in Part VI, "Tis awkward to pass such a door with both arms full of wood. We have such at ho--in Gerald's palace." The idea being that Edward corrects himself. Changing home with Castle Daggerfall where he grew up in. You could still say that Gerald was Corcyr's predecessor or something and that the palace is more associated with him in the in-universe history, but narratively it makes sense for Edward to call back to Corcyr, who we the reader are already aware of and is living in the castle the last time we see him. Maybe I'm wrong but King Edward also has a reputation for inaccuracies so this could potentially be one of them. You could still say that this is all original research but I think its a safer bet to have a Corcyr lore page and put a note mentioning Gerald and the similarities. --Vincentius1 (talk) 16:12, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Well if they are of the same bloodline them both being red of hair doesn’t seem like a factor that can weigh into anything. Same thing with Edward's reference to Gerald's palace, it very well may just be the name of the palace. To be honest, I have definitely considered the same thing as you that there was some editing errors and they were possibly meant to be one and the same. But based on what we got in the final published product there’s not one thing in the text that allows us to explicitly tie them together.

We know Gerald banned the Dark Elves, we don’t know of Corcyr doing any such thing. We know of Corcyr being the husband of Aliera, Roane, and the father of Edward and Roane's sons, we don’t know of Gerald checking any of these boxes. Yes there’s similarities, both red of hair, both have a hatred of Dark Elves, and both are tied to castle Daggerfall, but all of these work just as in harmony with the idea that Gerald is the predecessor as it does the idea he is simply Corcyr. And without any hard evidence that the two are one and the same, as a wiki we would naturally go with the assumption that the two nobles with completely different first names are in fact two different people. Dcking20 (talk) 17:10, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Valid points, but my main gripe is that if Gerald was indeed a predecessor, they would point it out for the sake of the story instead of just name-dropping without the proper context. I think narratively, it wouldn't make sense to reference this one person with no explicit relevancy to the story than the previously established character that has their similar traits. If we want to go with the exact material, I think it's better off to just say that "Gerald is a character mentioned in King Edward" than leaning into one idea of him or the other. Technically, it doesn't specifically say he was the King of Daggerfall, nor was there an implication. They only mention him like he's already an established character. Shot in the dark, but he could be the castle's castellan, like how Castle Kvatch has one or he originally built the castle and then his son, Corcyr becomes the first King. It could be anything until there's definitive proof saying so. --Vincentius1 (talk) 18:29, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

He really couldn’t possibly have the clout to make a county wide ban of Dark Elves without being the King could he? Between that and the naming of Gerald's palace idk what conclusion we could come to of this figure other than him being king. I would actually buy the possibility of castellan if it wasn’t also for the knowledge of the dark elf ban he ordered. Dcking20 (talk) 18:52, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

In that case I'd rather not make a conclusion at all because that's not up to us at the end of the day. At this point, I'm okay if they're not the same (I still think they are though), now I'm just not comfortable with calling him King if the games don't straight up call him King. For me, it's about the formality of it. --Vincentius1 (talk) 19:28, 24 December 2023 (UTC)