- 1 Square Mileage
- 2 Arena vs. Oblivion
- 3 Proper grammar
- 4 Dive Rock
- 5 Notable Places
- 6 County Lines?
- 7 Climate of Cyrodiil
- 8 "Originally a jungle, Cyrodiil was changed into a temperate climate by Emperor Tiber Septim."
- 9 Native Inhabitants
- 10 Dialogue regarding climate
- 11 Concerning the Cleanup of the 'Politics' Section
- 12 Provinces of Tamriel
- lore wise or Oblivion?, Oblivion is something like 2 or 3 — Unsigned comment by 22.214.171.124 (talk) at 06:09 on 29 April 2007
Arena vs. Oblivion
Why is it that in arena cyrodill had only the imperial city in it and in oblivion it's so big? Did it somehow expand in the time between the games or the developers simply decided to change it without ingame explanation? — Unsigned comment by 126.96.36.199 (talk)
- They just changed it with no in game explanation--Ratwar 19:46, 3 February 2009 (EST)
I'm pretty sure that, after taking a college level English class, the plural "cities" works better in the context of the main features. Inverting the sentence, you wouldn't say city are because that doesn't make any sense. The word "features" refers to multiple nouns, and, without the comma, the sentence would read "The main features of the region are the city of Anvil and Kvatch." So, the word "city" must be made plural to "cities" to make more sense with the sentence. The phrase "a major port city" is a subordinate clause and has to effect on what makes "city" plural or not. So, therefore, the word "city" should be "cities" QED. — Unsigned comment by Penguin0719 (talk • contribs)
- Okay, let's break it down then, since we obviously disagree here, and I'll explain why I changed it. This is the sentence we're working with, as it currently stands in the article:
- ...the main features of the region are the city of Anvil, a major port city, and the inland city of Kvatch.
- Now, if the sentence said "the main features of the region are the city of Anvil, a major port city, and Kvatch," you would probably want to use the plural "cities" instead. However, since the original phrasing said "the city of Anvil...and the inland city of Kvatch," that particular sentence needs the singular "city." You wouldn't say "My favorite colors are the colors blue and the color red," you would say "My favorite colors are the color blue and the color red." (Okay, to be honest, nobody would really say it like that, but that's not the point!) Unless the sentence is more drastically rephrased, it's fine how it is. --Eshetalk20:26, 13 February 2008 (EST)
- I agree with Eshe. The phrase in question is "city of Anvil;" "city of Kvatch" is a separate phrase. Each use of "city" refers to a single place and therefore should be singular. Penguin's simplified version of the sentence is not equivalent to the full sentence, which destroys the chain of logic. --NepheleTalk 22:37, 13 February 2008 (EST)
First of all, is Dive Rock really a "notable" place, worth mentioning along with the major cities? Second, is it actually the highest point? I think I remember walking downhill to get to Dive Rock.Vontos 21:11, 17 May 2008 (EDT)
Is it site policy to include only towns as notable places? In a lore article, places like Sancre Tor would certainly merit comment. — Unsigned comment by Temple-Zero (talk • contribs) on 6. September 2008
- I don't know why you would automatically assume that. Add Sancre Tor if you have a description for it that fits into the article contents. Perhaps seperate the towns from it with a sub-section "Notable Towns"... --Timenn < talk > 14:24, 6 September 2008 (EDT)
- Just checked Morrowind's article. Red Mountain is included on the same list as the others. Guess we should keep it consistent.Temple-Zero 14:27, 6 September 2008 (EDT)
Hi guys... I was making this map for personal use and was directed over here because "...the guys at the Lore forum would love to take a look at [my] map" My porblem was the definity of the borders of the various counties, which are all of ambiguous. Any help in that area and overall judgement of my job would be greatly appreciated, thanks! Davehoekst 21:10, 10 September 2008 (EDT)
- Changed to link rather than embedded image. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 01:00, 11 September 2008 (EDT)
- Ain't many lore guys over here, but I think I left some comment about the Imperial Reserve back on the forums. I'm not sure if you should attempt to cover the land so completely, as I don't think the towns would divide the province feudal style (Colovia would certainly have a large collection of landowners) but rather direct certain regions. The counties are labeled, so perhaps it would be better to search for natural barriers and landscape transitions near the labels and call them the border, rather than having everything abut into someone else's land.Temple-Zero 15:19, 11 September 2008 (EDT)
- Changed to link rather than embedded image. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 01:00, 11 September 2008 (EDT)
Climate of Cyrodiil
In Morrowind, the Imperial Province is described as a jungle. In Oblivion, though, it's a stereotypical medieval forest. I love walking around in a medieval forest and all, but it seems odd, seeing how every man in Vvardenfell has a different view on Cyrodiil than what it is. I can't help but think that they might be referencing a temperate rainforest, which is a cluster of temperate trees with a lot of rain, perfectly describing Blackwood and the West Weald. — Unsigned comment by 188.8.131.52 (talk) at 10:55 on 4 January 2010
- The source text is highly specific and scientific. Blackwood is described as "subtropical," not temperate, and the West Weald is a grassland. 184.108.40.206 00:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
"Originally a jungle, Cyrodiil was changed into a temperate climate by Emperor Tiber Septim."
I wasn't sure if this should go into the existing "Climate of Cyrodiil", so I'm sorry if it dosen't need another section and I'm just wasting space. Anywho, I read through bothe the reference things straight after this sentence, but I still don't get it - did Tiber Septim have some sort of space age terraforming or something? I think this sentence ought to be expanded a little. UnrealFragger 15:43, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
- You don't really need that advanced tech to change a climate. For example Northern Africa used to be much more fertile until the Romans started mass farming the area, increasing desertification greatly. If you burn enough jungle the jungle won't come back, so that is likely the best logical explanation. The magical lore one goes like this.
- "'You have suffered for me to win this throne, and I see how you hate jungle. Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.'"
- So he apparently cooled Cyrodiil with ice magic. Making it to cool for the jungles to survive. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 15:52, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
- Correct me if i'm wrong but "'You have suffered for me to win this throne, and I see how you hate jungle. Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.'" is the only thing that says the climate was changed by Tiber Septim, I checked the reference and it specifically says that it isn't found in game. From the sounds of it, it is a fan made explanation for the change of the description of Cyrodiil as being a Jungle to being a Forest. If it is fan made it wouldn't make sense for it to be in the article. — Unsigned comment by 220.127.116.11 (talk) at 18:50 on 3 December 2011 (GMT)
- You misunderstand. There are now three separate sources claiming that Tiber Septim changed the climate, and only one of them is from out-of-game material. It isn't fanon in the slightest, and the speech you're quoting comes directly from dialogue in Skyrim. --Legoless 21:31, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
(←) The Many-Headed Talos quote usually goes over peoples heads. The rough Cyrod translation of the Ehlnofex CHIM is Royalty. When Tiber Septim gave that sppech to the Legion he was boasting that he had achieved CHIM ie "I breathe now in royalty" and with that power he would certainly be able to "shout" jungles of Cyrodiil away. — Unsigned comment by 18.104.22.168 (talk) at 19:42 on 15 December 2012
- The world "jungle" originally meant simply a wild, dense forest, it's only in modern times that it has come to mean a tropical rainforest. Could it just mean that Tiber Septim felled large areas of Cyrodiil's forest to make way for settlements? Perhaps the Great Forest used to stretch further into Colovia and the West Weald before it was cut back? Norowane (talk) 23:42, 30 December 2012 (GMT)
(←) Someone wrote in the Notes section: The development team for Elder Scrolls Online declared that assertions Cyrodiil was ever a jungle are the result of a transcription error.[oog 2] I tried to click on the link, but it just said Events of the Elder Scrolls Online. How could a book mentioning Tiber Septim changing Cyrodiil's climate be the result of a simple transcription error? I reckon it should be deleted. -- Kharwog 19:43, 10 July 2013
- It's some idiotic thing Zenimax came up with to avoid showing Cyrodiil as it was originally envisioned - you know, cool and interesting. More than one source treated Cyrodiil as a jungle, and trying to write it off as a transcription error is, as you indicated, unbelievable. I think most lore fanatics look at something like that and think, "Oh, bull****". You may not have seen it in the lore section for the same reason you don't hear much about the Levitation Act. That act, like the "transcription error", is just a piss-poor explanation for a compromise the developers made with the ES world, and we know it. There's always plenty of things to do in the lorespace, and people only take the time to work on the things they agree with. Evidently, few people think that Zenimax's "assertion" is worthy of attention. I, for one, have ignored it entirely, and I encourage others to do the same. Honestly, I would sooner add the Space Core to the lore section. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 20:18, 10 July 2013 (GMT)
- Yes, you have made a valid point, and it seems just more like an 'excuse' than anything. Thx for explaining it. Also, I just wanted to point out the developers of ES Online aren't Bethesda, like you said, Zenimax. -- Kharwog 20:32, 10 July 2013
- Everything in ESO is Bethesda approved, therefore any history "altered" by ESO is valid. You do not have to participate in adding the information to lore, but there is no excuse for not having it. I do agree that some retcon is very poorly implemented and other contradictions are simply brushed over between games (ESO is not the first to have retconned lore). The game being made by a different company does not mean it is not part of the Elder Scrolls lore and timeline. Ignore it all you want, but it will eventually be included, and legitimately so. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:52, 10 July 2013 (GMT)
- If the Twitter link is not working properly (here's the full quote: ESO's Cyrodiil is based on current Tamriel lore. The original "endless jungle" description is considered a transcription error.), perhaps this answer here would be a better source? This only addresses the "endless jungle" and "equatorial rain" descriptions though, and not the references to Tiber Septim changing the climate. They haven't mentioned that at all. --Enodoc (talk) 16:15, 11 July 2013 (GMT)
- Oh, I think I get it. I guess we could we could assume "Error in transcription" means that Cyrodiil being a jungle was improperly translated by a scholar from (to sound more legitimate) either Ayleid or oral tradition(just speculation) to Tamriellic. The link did help a bit, but this explanation sounds more thoroughly explained than previously. But I'm still a bit confused: if Tiber Septim was born in 2E 828, isn't that some 250 years after the events of ES Online? Then (events of ES Online) Cyrodiil wouldn't even had been a jungle (if Talos had transformed it), because he wouldn't have been born yet? I'm not arguing with the transcription error anymore, but wouldn't it have made more sense to say Talos wasn't alive yet? --Kharwog 16:44, 11 July 2013
- Wait 2E 828 is way too late to be translated from either oral tradition or Ayleid. This is all very confusing. -- Kharwog 16:47, 11 July 2013
- Yes, indeed confusing. Although I think you may have it backwards. The theory is that Cyrodiil was a jungle before 2E896, and in 2E896, Talos changed it from tropical to temperate. He supposedly said I see how you hate jungle. [...] I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. So I see the way they can get out of this retcon and make it more reasonable is thus; Cyrodiil needs to have more forested regions in ESO than it did in Oblivion. Then there is some sort of jungle for Talos to get rid of later. Foresting, say, the Colovian Highlands (their "extensive highlands") and Nibenay Basin (where you get more rainfall) regions could get around that. Once ESO is out, I imagine fans of the lore will do their best to pick apart this retcon and find other ways to keep it making sense. --Enodoc (talk) 14:57, 12 July 2013 (GMT)
(←) The point about lore and ESO is that it is entirely, 100%, without a doubt canon. If you try and pick apart lore in ESO, then you should also pick apart the lore in Skyrim, and in Oblivion, and in Morrowind. ESO is no different from those at all. It is an official game, created by a company whose sole purpose was to create this game, and all of the lore is 100% checked and okay'd by the main lore people for the entire series. There is no ESO lore and main game Lore. There is just... Lore. No matter what it says, we use it, just like if TES6 was coming out. Jeancey (talk) 17:29, 12 July 2013 (GMT)
- TESO has intentionally crafted their game ignoring lore other Bethesda games have upheld. It is not fans who are ignoring lore. It is TESO. I consider it to be an alternate TES universe/timeline since it doesn't fit with the other games in TES series. It is at least a retcon not a simple addition because it makes completely unreconciliable contradictions with the rest of the canon. e.i. "The jungle question" It is important to classify lore additions properly. Sometimes devs make retcons instead of simple additions. TESO is definitely making some major revisions which are controversial enough to warrant legitimate debate on whether those revisions are even believeable retcons or completely "sideways" to the rest of lore canon. Retcons need to be carefully fitted into remaining "legitimate" lore or else it should be called a "reboot." TESO is probably closer to a "reboot" than a series addition or retcon at this point. Either way, TESO references should be included here showing the alternate timeline or "version" of TESO (like the novel which is cited somtimes with different lore and other previous attempted revisions are mentioned here). Arctus has been revised about 3 times. All versions are referenced according to their source materials.
- I think the mistake people are making is believing TESO to be a part of previous canon. TESO is not doing that, but that doesn't mean TESO's version needs to be completely discarded on these pages. It needs cited as "the TESO version of events" where contradictions in lore occur so that people can see where the games stand apart as individual works. Each game tends to add/revise things and those discrepancies need noted in the articles. "In X, this is what happened. But in Y, they said this is what really happened." In trying to write articles synchronizing the lore of every game, people are being unnecessarily divided over the "true events" when different versions exist and will always have adherents based on various previous titles' lore and personal preference. We only need to record what the devs/writers have created in each title and let the community debate their legitimacy while favoring certain versions "ad infinitum." 22.214.171.124 14:10, 21 October 2013 (GMT)
- Let me make one thing simple and clear; TESO is Bethesda approved and it is lore. It is not going to be disregarded based on personal opinion. There is an official retcon (and we do acknowledge its shoddiness and scraping-the-barrel-excuse) so it is lore. Seeing as this has devolved into a discussion on whether ESO is an ES game, this discussion is closed, that debate is for the forums. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 14:27, 21 October 2013 (GMT)
This topic is now closed.
Wouldn't Altmer (High Elves , Heartland High elves or Ancient Ayleids as thay are referred to) be the native inhabitants of cyrodill seeings as to all the references in the game saying that the Ancient Ayleids or Heartland High Elves ruled cyrodill in the long time before recorded history — Unsigned comment by 126.96.36.199 (talk) at 19:48 on 16 July 2011
- To but it bluntly, no. First of all, the Ayleids were themselves outsiders, coming from the Summerset Isle and taking the land from the humans and beast-folk of the area. Secondly, Cyrodiil didn't exist until the fall of White-Gold Tower (and therefore the fall of Ayleid power in the region). This article is about the province, not the region. Therefore, the Imperials are the native inhabitants of the province of Cyrodiil.--Kalis AgeaYes? Contrib E-mail 20:05, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
The Altmer explored the Nibenay Basin and founded the Ayleid Civilization, but the original inhabitants are the proto-man races of which the Imperials are the main descendents. The proto-man races like Nedes, etc. were eventually enslaved to the more advanced Altmer. There are probably ancient Ayleid ancestors for both mer and man as there are also Akaviri ancestors for many Imperials and probably elves as well. Both mer and man races have distant ancestral roots in the region presently called Cyrodiil, but the Imperials have controlled the province since Alessia and the displaced Ayleids are considered original inhabitants of Summerset (though they are in fact from Old Elfhoney or Aldmeris even before they migrated to Atmora and thence to Summerset). I would consider Ayleids "native" to Cyrodiil and their descendents, but their ancestral origins are from Summerset (perhaps even Atmora or Aldmeris). Imperials are the older natives if directly descended. Over the millennia and wars, I doubt peoples living in Cyrodiil have much relation to their distant ancestors since those peoples died out. Certainly true Wild Elves are extremely rare as to be fable or myth and all the proto-man races are said to be extinct. The people since Alessia who are considered the "native and entitled" people of Cyrodiil with greatest claim on the region are a man race called "Imperials." (Even though most don't live in or near the Imperial Capitol.) 188.8.131.52 14:46, 21 October 2013 (GMT)
Dialogue regarding climate
I don't know if it's wanted in the article, but there is a little more information on the jungle climate. It also says that a "great river" drains into Black Marsh's swamps, but I can't find this on an actual Oblivion map, so that may be notable.
"Cyrodiil is the cradle of Human Imperial high culture on Tamriel. It is the largest region of the continent, and most is endless jungle. The Imperial City is in the heartland, the fertile Nibenay Valley. The densely populate central valey is surrounded by wild rain forests drained by great rivers into the swamps of Argonia and Topal Bay. The land rises gradually to the west and sharply to the north. Between its western coast and its central valley are deciduous forests and mangrove swamps."
- The great river that drains into Argonia would either be the Panther or Niben Rivers. The Panther River starts at the Niben Bay and can be traced back to the South Western Argonian cities of Soulrest and Blackrose. The Niben River goes from Lake Rumare (Imperial City area) into the Topal Bay which also touches the Western Argonian coast. — Unsigned comment by 184.108.40.206 (talk) at 18:02 on 3 November 2012 (GMT)
- I'm tempted to say that the Morrowind dialogue on the rivers is just wrong. The Panther River empties into Niben Bay, not Black Marsh. And unless they consider the east coast of Topal Bay to be "Argonia", the River Niben certainly doesn't empty into it either (plus, the fact that the dialogue distinguishes between the two also discredits this). So either there are hidden waterways in Blackwood that we don't see in Oblivion, or the dialogue is just incorrect/retconned. —Legoless (talk) 20:35, 3 November 2012 (GMT)
TES4:Oblivion doesn't draw Cyrodiil as described in TES3:Morrowind or lore books in TES series. There are several discrepancies in the geography which are unexplained. For reference, I would go by the lore not the intentional/unintentional(?) omissions in game 4. If we consider the rendered Cyrodiil in TES4 as absolutely complete and accurate, we must reglegate the lore books as fabricated nonsense published throughout Tamriel for amusement. If there is a "great river" mentioned, it exists in Morrowind topography even if in Oblivion topography it doesn't. 220.127.116.11 15:27, 21 October 2013 (GMT)
Concerning the Cleanup of the 'Politics' Section
I was hoping that someone could add a list of the emperors that ruled Cyrodiil in chronological order, and if possible, add background info on each emperor.
- You can find a list of emperors, with links to each of their pages at the Tamrielic Emperors page. :) Adding them here would only make this page unmanageably long (there are 45 known emperors, most with pages). :) Jeancey (talk) 21:27, 28 February 2013 (GMT)