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- Sorry, just trying to make sure someone looking for an item listed at Unobtainable Items doesn't miss the link. Is one entry at the top in the general info and one at the bottom in the notes okay? I wouldn't want someone to have to read/scroll through the whole page only to learn that the item they are looking for is listed somewhere else. Bookwyrm1357 (talk) 19:16, 27 April 2014 (GMT)
- The redirects for each item should take care of it, and there shouldn't be much crossover. Generally people would look for an item they can obtain though. I felt it best placed in the notes section as it isn't that relevant to the page its on rather than the opening paragraph which should be about the page itself, and any obvious subsorting of pages. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:21, 27 April 2014 (GMT)
In response to your request for some explicit examples. The two I find most wrong are,
- Drem Yol Lok = Your fire lies in peace.
- Wuldsetiid los tahrodiis = Vortex-Of-Time Is Treacherous
- Alduin komeyt tiid = Time has let Alduin loose
The first I cannot source at all, while the second's given translation in the data is much more varied/variable. The third is noted as a rough translation, but it is only one of many that fit the words "Alduin has been set free by the hands of time" is one that follows the tone of prophecy and the order of the words. There are others where parenthesis' are added to translations where it doesn't exist in the data, like, and . If this is due to using only the lore page as a source and not the data then I commend you on getting it so close.
Original research is something anyone can fall foul of and not even know it. It's not something you like to be accused of, but neither is it a black mark against your name. Missing even one book on a subject can leave you with an opinion different to those that have read that book. We are even more strict on what is acceptable than wikipedia in this regard, as there are fewer Elder Scrolls sites than ones that cover wikipedia type subjects. Also most of our subject is offline and not available to the general reader should they wish to check the source material for accuracy. This is why books and dialogue must be 100% accurate, as they make up probably 99% of our sources for lore pages. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 12:16, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- The above translation of "Drem Yol Lok" in the page intro wasn't mine. Mine was "Peace Fire Sky" seen in the "Throat of the World" section, which is a literal word by word translation. If you look at the page history, you can see that the translation you reference was there before, during, and after my edit. The translations that were originally by me (as far as I recall) are only those in the sections on the quests "The Throat of the World", "Elder Knowledge", and "Alduin's Bane" They may very well have been changed since, though. I didn't pay much attention to sections besides the ones I was working on (a little bit in "Meditation", plus the two quest sections I'd just added) and so did not pay any attention to the translations in the intro.
- For the other translations, I'm not sure which data you are referring to. If you mean Paarthurnax's dialogue, he doesn't provide the sort of restatement with these words that he does at other times. If you mean the Creation Kit, I am so bad at using it that I might as well not have access to it at all.
- For the ones with parenthesis, as I noted on the talk page, the parentheses are to help readers by adding words which seem to be implied (such as "noun description" to "noun (is) description").
- For the other two: Alduin komeyt tiid = Alduin + komeyt + tiid =Alduin + issue/let loose + time. It wouldn't make sense to say that Alduin let time loose, but considering that Alduin was "set adrift on the currents of time", time letting Alduin loose would. Even though it changed the word order, that was the closest I could think of. To preserve the order I might say "Alduin (has been) let loose (by) time" but as you can see, that involves adding words, which I felt was worse than changing the order.
- Wuldsetiid los tahrodiis = (wuldsetiid) + los + tahrodis = ( wuld + se + tiid = whirlwind/vortex + of + time) + is + treacherous. I tried to represent an apparent compound dragon word with a compound English word wuldsetiid = vortex-of-time. I'd likely have used a translation from the DL page, but "wuldsetiid" is unlisted.
- I often use this site, and on Skyrim pages with dragon language, I have often noticed translations which were not literal (judging by the DL page), but rather ones which added a few words, or translated words as English synonyms, or were otherwise rough. I therefore assumed that a fair bit of leeway was allowed in translating. I don't think I went very far (except with vonmindoraan), since (Scrolls Unknown)(lit. trans. of "Kelle vomindok") would be very difficult to understand on it's own, and that "Wuldsetiid" is exactly the same as three other words minus spaces, and results in a perfectly intelligible sentence if broken down into those words.
- As I understand it, original research consists of drawing conclusions that were not in the sources. While breaking wuldsetiid down would technically qualify, I didn't think it would be any more controversial than asserting that inside = in + side.
- With vonmindoraan, my reasoning could have been (using English words) "a sentry is a person who watches, and 'sentient' contains a similar root, therefore 'sentient' must mean something similar, like 'cabable of watching'", this, I now agree, is going too far with independent conclusions. After all, unlike "sentient" which we can easily look up in a dictionary (which tells us that the meaning above is wrong) and which we therefore don't need to guess the meaning of, there aren't any definitive dictionaries (as far as I know) on the fictional languages of the Elder Scrolls universe - educated guesses are the best we have. I agree that since guesses are pretty much all we can do, that those guesses should be either very small or very well supported. My guess about vonmidoraan was neither, and so unacceptable on the wiki.
- So, the things of the things I did during translation are: direct word for word using UESPwiki's page on the language, breaking down apparent "perfect" compound words, adding words to make the English translation understandable, and extrapolating meanings based off similar words. We now both agree that the last is inappropriate on UESPwiki, but which (if any) of the others are inappropriate? I hope very much that at least using the language page to translate is appropriate, or I'd only be able to translate really common words like "Dovahkiin", which probably don't even need to be translated for most readers. Bookwyrm1357 (talk) 20:23, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- Apologies on that translation then. Yes, the CK, which provides a big proportion of the translations via developer's notes alongside the words, much like a directors notes in an actors script (eg. "be angry here"). In many cases the notes simply translate the dragon words "(Zu'u tiiraaz ahst ok mah. = "I am sad at his fall.")". In terms of dictionaries I do think ours is the cleanest and most strict, a lot of the others have fallen foul of people who use "thuum.org" a community based translator that has invented many words in order to fill in the gaps in knowledge, and assigned meanings to the words we know but have no official translation for (quite a few from the Word Walls are untranslated). Prima games, who fall somewhere between official and unofficial, have an online dictionary with many words that did not appear in their guides, and leaves out a huge chunk of translated words. Using the dictionary is fully acceptable, a number of translations you provided on Parth's page did not have an associated developer note in the CK, and thus it would be impossible to have provided them otherwise.
- The wuldsetiid translation is given in the data as "the whirlwind/vortex of time is treacherous/turbulent". The compound word wuldsetiid is no different to the three words that it is made of which have other sources, with the additional translation of vortex alongside the known translation of vortex for wuld. When a compound word has the literal meaning of the same as the words it breaks down to if they were not compounded, it isn't listed. The phrase is listed under the phrases section of the language page.
- In our efforts to keep the page "clean" of unsourced additions, we ask that any new words added come with a source. There are words that have translations in the data, but you need to know what to look for in there. Add to that that it looks for all instances, and trying to find the translation for something like "ok" on it's own is very hard. For the phrase above you'd find it quicker using one of the words that will never appear in an English word, like "tiiraz", or using the whole phrase. I did attempt to go through all of Paarth's dialogue once, but not all is linked to his NPC entry. Trying to go through all that data on the chance that one word is missing is a tedious and unrewarding process. Quicker progress is made when someone does what you did to Paarth for Alduin and the others, and then those phrases can be checked. Then the words can be checked against the language page and any missing ones added. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:46, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- OK, if I understand you correctly: using the dictionary is fine, breaking down compound words is OK if they are perfect and there isn't evidence they mean something besides the literal translation. Is that correct?
- Also, since, as I said, I don't have access to the Creation Kit, is it (I hope) alright to use the dictionary in the meantime? When I was translating "tahrodiis", for example, I saw that the dictionary lists it to mean only "treacherous", and translated accordingly
- You didn't say anything about adding words to make a sentence understandable, nor using parenthesis to indicate this, nor reordering words for the same purpose. When, if ever, are these allowed?
- About perfect compound words like wuldsetiid, is it that they can safely be left off the page, or that they actively should not be put there? I'm hoping it's the former, as I, for one, would rather look up one word than two or three. And if it is the latter, why are words like "Strundu'ul" and "Dovahgolz" listed?
- I see that some words have a listed meaning, and then a note (lit. ___ ). But in other cases, there is no such note. For example, "Vennesetiid" would seem to be (venne + se + tiid) or (plural of ven-"wind" + of + time)= "winds of time", and yet it is listed as "currents of time". Would it be acceptable for me to add a (lit. ___ ) note on the page for things like that?
- Lastly, I'd like to say that I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. Bookwyrm1357 (talk) 00:03, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yes. Using the page is fine, you can't be blamed for other people's mistakes, but you may get the initial firing squad if it is wrong. I generally don't use it when checking as I can check both the translation and the spelling/punctuation of the dialogue in the data at the same time. Adding words or parenthesis to a translation is simply not allowed. If you don't have a proper sentence or translation then use a literal one, just the known words. In that case it might be better to do individual hovers for each word. It's the former, its safe to leave it off. Strundu'ul and Dovahgolz appear to be naming nouns. They are more than just their literal translations, Strundu'ul is a title given to Talos and then bestowed upon you by the Greybeards, while Dragonstone is described as a map of dragon burial sites but not translated as such. It may be that this is a misinterpretation by Farengar (who capitalizes every usage), but there is no other evidence besides Delphine who doesn't always capitalize it. If there is a translation followed by a literal one, that's either because the breakdown doesn't quite match the sourced translations for the smaller words, or the translated meaning still doesn't convey the true meaning. Venne is winds, and winds need air currents. Dragons are more likely to associate currents with the air than the sea, so the translation would probably look like "(air) currents". For something like Monahven its easier to see, because they have a name for the mountain that is different to the name given it by the Nords. Monahven does not translate to Throat of the World, it is just their name for the same place. When we have a 'normal' translation, it is better to use that for the translation on a page. A full dictionary may have uses, and it could be done with some of the other language pages that are getting quite long as each game adds more. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:22, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you. It's good to know about using the language page, and not adding words. Not needing to figure out which words would be best to add will be easier anyway! For the words I mentioned, I was thinking that the words themselves are the same as the words which make them up (dovahgolz= dovah + golz = dragon + stone = dragonstone, and it's a stone related to dragons), but you are right that that does not necessarily mean that the meaning is the same as the constituent words.
- However, you still did not answer my question about compound words. Is the policy that they shouldn't be included, or that they needn't be included? Because if including them is optional, rather than forbidden, I'd like to include words like "wuldsetiid" (and perhaps other similar words, if I find them) for ease of reference. Bookwyrm1357 (talk) 03:59, 8 June 2015 (UTC)